Yglesias for “liberal” on historical grounds, Bowers for “progressive” based on marketing concerns. Read, ponder, return.
I prefer ”liberal” as a self-definition. Two concepts are inherent in the word – liberty, for the individual; and generosity, individually and as a society – and these are concepts which have been much-neglected in this country for … well, for always, in some ways. A useful reminder to myself and others. These are not simple ideas, and people can and will disagree about what they mean and how they should be applied, but that’s life. It is complicated, most of the time. And that’s another thing that’s worth acknowledging – there’s the old joke about the liberal being the guy who won’t take his own side in the argument, which is at least half half-true: the liberal should try to understand and appreciate all valid positions, and not expect reality to line up with one’s preconceptions. (Be “reality-based“, if you will.) This is an attitude which shares a lot with conservatism, as properly defined – as opposed to modern radical-right “(neo-)conservatism” – or a bit like Sully’s exciting new “conservatism of doubt“, only without the lucrative decades of eroticized infatuation with powerful scumbags. It’s an admittedly dangerous attitude in a world where Liberal Fascism is presented as some sort of meaningful political statement, and where so much money and effort is spent ensuring that our political debate is thick with purest horseshit, to which I can only caution: above all, don’t be a fucking chump.
I don’t care for “progressivism” for a couple of reasons. The first is the reason Bowers likes it – it polls well. Of course it polls well. Nobody’s going to identify themselves as a “regressive”. Chocolate candy rainbows poll well, too, I’d wager. I’d prefer a self-definition a bit more substantive, and possibly confrontational, than “a desire to make things better”. Maybe that’s a dumb reason, but it’s mine and I like it. So there.
A possibly better reason: the idea of “progress” in society is much like the idea of “progress” in evolution – one starts with primitive, disgusting cannibalistic jellythings and, through the implacable forces of Natural/Historical Selection, one approaches some Omega point: becoming angelic Star Children, perhaps, or having the state whither away to some sort of glorious ponyarchy. The problem with this idea is that it’s dumb. Newer isn’t necessarily better, and solutions which are elegant in one time and place (human beings/liberal democracy) are hopeless in other settings (the bottom of the ocean/Iraq). Over time more complex structures become possible, but that’s doesn’t imply desireable. Perhaps this is reading too much into one word, and I’m not suggesting people who call themselves “progressives” hold any specific Marxist or otherwise deterministic views of history, but there’s a sense of unquestionable rightness in the term, too optimistic, not sufficiently agnostic. Again, that’s me.
But the more important thing is that “we” don’t have to agree to define ourselves one way, because we are all individuals. And that’s OK (such a liberal attitude)! It seems to me that there are some substantive differences between people who prefer “liberal” and people who prefer “progressive”. It might be useful to understand, rather than paper over, these differences. And if we’re looking for a blanket descriptive term, I think ”social democrat” is about right (if I read European politics correctly, which is not a given.)
February 7, 2008 at 12:05 pm
Besides if we went with “progressive” we’d need to figure who the Jew of Progressive Fascism was.
February 7, 2008 at 12:17 pm
You used to be funny but now you’re just liberal.
February 7, 2008 at 12:41 pm
So does this make Airwolf an “Attack Jetcopter” or a “Jet Attackcopter”?
Would Airwolf have a “civil union” with Blue Thunder or would it insist on “marriage”?
Words matter, but missiles hurt worse.
February 7, 2008 at 12:44 pm
I say Onward to Glorious Ponyarchy!!!
February 7, 2008 at 12:46 pm
We are getting ahead of ourselves. Power first; then fratricide.
Until then, I insist that we must coalesce as “progriberal brights”.
February 7, 2008 at 12:52 pm
Personally, I prefer “empiricist”, but Social Democrat does have a certain euro-reasonableness to it, a middle path that allows a nation to have universal healthcare without having to wait in mile-long lines while watching a parade of missles roll by.
Ultimately though, if it’s gotta be a word that has all the team-loyalty, fuck-your-side confrontational connotations to it, I like “Labor”. Yeah, that’s right, with an oh-ar. ‘Cause ahmanahmurkin, bygawd.
February 7, 2008 at 12:56 pm
Excellent. Chocolate Candy Rainbow party it is then.
Or…the Candy Rainbow And Pony Party! We could then shorten it to the CRAP Party. Who wouldn’t want to identify with candy, rainbows AND ponies?
Indeed.
February 7, 2008 at 12:56 pm
Not it!
February 7, 2008 at 1:12 pm
…and when they came for the guys with the really cheesy comb-overs, there was nobody left to stand up for me.
February 7, 2008 at 1:28 pm
I like liberal because it works better in language. To wit: “I’ve ingested a liberal amount of cocaine.” v. “I’ve ingested a progressive amount of cocaine.” WTF does that mean? Nothing, I say.
And while things can get “progressively worse”, it’s a stretch to think things can get “liberally worse”.
February 7, 2008 at 1:43 pm
“I’ve ingested a progressive amount of cocaine.” WTF does that mean? Nothing, I say.
It means we took enough cocaine to propel us forward! If not into the future, then at least through a high-rise window.
February 7, 2008 at 1:53 pm
How about “Rational”?
Oh wait, now I’ll probably be attacked by all the PI-tarians, as well as the e-publicans. Never mind.
February 7, 2008 at 2:02 pm
I see myself as an Operating Thetan, but I’m hoping Kirstie Alley will give me a lot of money to work that out.
I wish you defined yourself more often as a Talking Dinosaur.
Centrism Forever!!!1!1
February 7, 2008 at 2:06 pm
“I prefer ”liberal” as a self-definition. Two concepts are inherent in the word – liberty, for the individual; and generosity, individually and as a society”
That’s really nicely put, but is that really a reason to make it a catchall word for person on the left? There’s a lot of history and ideas there, that you kind of lose if you just make it into a catchall.
I find it weird that no one’s suggested that the catchall word for person on the left be…leftwinger. I am suggesting it now.
(Or even leftists, there’s really no reason to concede that words to a few cranks.)
February 7, 2008 at 2:18 pm
It’s not a catchall term for those on the left, it’s for all those on the left who, until ~3 years ago, everyone knew as ‘liberals’.
February 7, 2008 at 2:19 pm
Liberal is better, as you can tell by the eagerness of everyone of every other political tradition to define it as something it isn’t.
To movement conservatives, it’s fascism. Enough said.
To old-style conservatives, it’s communism. Again enough said.
To U.S. libertarians, it produces whines about they are the true classical liberals and about bad bad FDR who made everything go wrong (and sometimes about bad bad Lincoln.)
To annoying “radical” “leftists”, all liberals are neo-liberals, which are basically conservatives.
February 7, 2008 at 2:30 pm
And no, “social democrat” isn’t a blanket descriptive term. It’s less vague than all those other terms (which isn’t saying a lot, but still.)
I’m trying to think what distinguishes social democrats from other types of leftists. I guess a emphasis on community, on the common good, on solidarity. An greater preoccupation on power structures and systems.
Less emphasis on individualism, enlightened discourse and Reason, and enlightened self interest, on bargaining, less scepticism of government (without necessarily being on the other side of the scale.)
February 7, 2008 at 2:33 pm
“It’s not a catchall term for those on the left, it’s for all those on the left who, until ~3 years ago, everyone knew as ‘liberals’.”
No, that’s not what for example Bowers wants. He doesn’t want a distinction between radicals and moderates, he wants them all to join together.
February 7, 2008 at 2:40 pm
That may be, and I’m not arguing against it. But what Bowers & Yglasias are talking about in the present instance is replacing ‘liberal’ with ‘progressive’, not replacing ‘left-wing’ with something else. ‘Liberal’ has never been an accepted synonym for the entire left-wing in America, except among the doughiest dregs of demogogery. It is a fairly broad term, but nowhere near that broad.
February 7, 2008 at 3:02 pm
I dunno, I think you’re wrong.
Here’s Yggie:
“it is, in fact, the case that Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton are both in the left-most third of the Senator distribution and any reasonable approach will show that. Meanwhile, “liberal” just is the term people use for that side of the political spectrum in the modern United States.”
I think when say reporters and cable pundits use the term, they just mean lefties. If we want to distinguish liberal lefties from other types, the cable pundits aren’t on our side.
February 7, 2008 at 3:03 pm
Enough of this fancy talk about what to call ourselves. What I want to know is, why can’t I fuck a chimp? After all, this is America! I should be able to fuck as many chimps as I want. And they want to be fucked! Oh yes, you know they do! Why, I should be able to line up a whole bunch of chimps and just fuck…..
Wait. I’m sorry, what was that?
don’t be a fucking chump
Oh. Well that’s completely different.
Never mind.
February 7, 2008 at 3:04 pm
Actually, maybe I’m wrong in that they might not call marxists liberals. But there aren’t any marxists in the public sphere, so how would you know. It doesn’t make any practical difference.
February 7, 2008 at 3:06 pm
The strange thing, tho, is that practically nobody describes themselves as liberal.
Every Republican running for office describes themself as conservative. When was the last time you saw a Democratic cnadidate run as a liberal?
Where are the “liberal” magazines, think tanks, student groups? (OK, the American Prospect. Others?) It’s a little hard to stand up for a name that nobody wants to go by.
Eds., are you a liberal or liberals?
February 7, 2008 at 3:10 pm
First the end of paragraph two: “above all, don’t be a fucking chump.”
This is why your genius is indispensible to the internets.
Second, I disagree with you, and to prove I am a liberal I will add something to your side of the argument. People who say they are progressives rather than liberals are pussies who are part of the problem. They provide encouragement to the bad guys by being afraid to take them on in a frontal engagement.
(p.s. I still think progressive is the more accurate term, and I’ve been a reader of the progressive for 23 years.)
February 7, 2008 at 3:12 pm
If we want to distinguish liberal lefties from other types, the cable pundits aren’t on our side.
Cable pundits (and by extension, the national chatting class) aren’t on our side regardless. We could call ourselves “Tuna Deluxe Specials,” or “Strapping Anvils of Sexuality,” or “Whack-a-Molians,” and we’d still be The Other as far as pundits are concerned. Corporate Media is inherently opposed to left-wing, liberal, and/or progressive interests.
But of course, I would think that–I’m a liberal.
February 7, 2008 at 3:18 pm
personally, i’ve always preferred “bearded, bomb-throwing bakuninist” to either of those other milquetoast, panty-waist terms.
let them imagine me as a mad-eyed misanthrope in a shabby black suit and hobnail boots, banging away on a laptop from my cardboard box under an overpass somewhere – we are legion!
February 7, 2008 at 3:21 pm
Well when you’re done redefining the left, we need to saddle up and rope some kittens. These cats won’t herd themselves.
February 7, 2008 at 3:35 pm
The words are used for describing two different ways at looking at politics.
If you consider politics to be controlling the rate of change in society then the conservative-progressive dynamic is correct. This concept means that social evolution is inevitable and it only depends on how fast we get there. Think of The Civil Right’s Movement and The Labor Movement in this context.
Liberal is a different philosophical parameter that any open-democracy should be considered as being in. The United States is a liberal democracy. We have a Bill of Rights, free movement of capital, etc.
All supporters of the U.S. Constitution and free market capitalism, (yes even with some preservative regulation), are “liberals.”
Americans are all “liberals” but some of us are progressive and some of us are conservative or even turn-back-the-clock regressive. This extends on the scale to “reactionary” and “revolutionary” and ultimately the philosophies converge at Stalin.
There is no current “correct” term to describe the two major factions in our current political system. There are no pure federalists, neither any pure democratic-republicans anymore, as there is constant realignment, 1968 being the last major shift. Most of the current positions circle around interpretation of the 14th amendment and I think the current political dynamic is ill served by either choice. It’s the difference between the colloquial named dog or cat, or the more specific latin framed descriptions of different species. If we must be colloquial then it’s better to quantify the two major attitudes within the context of rate of change within a liberal democratic republic with a capitalist economy. That’s what’s being taught at the Political Science 101 level, I hope it is still, but I wouldn’t be surprised if mass confusion has taken over. Reform and Progressivism are so closely bonded in history because the thought was you always had to clean-up before you could move forward.
So we are all liberals by virtue of our system of government, unless you’re an anarchist, fascist, or some other exotic and the best way to describe American cultural attitudes is either as progressive or conservative. It’s all about the rate of change within a liberal society.
February 7, 2008 at 3:50 pm
No, the republicans aren’t liberals. They don’t believe in the rule of law.
February 7, 2008 at 4:08 pm
A political scientist describes ideological factions and those within the factions like a zoologist desribes an animal species, in levels of specificity.
Chimps and humans, are both mammals, primates, bipeds, but they’re not the same animals.
American Republicans and Democrats aren’t “cats” and “dogs”, they’re all “dogs”, but of different breeds.
It’s all about Animal Husbandry.
February 7, 2008 at 4:11 pm
Some of us are thinking along the lines of taxonomy of the Population Politic… Nice conversation, but ultimately, not too helpful (unless of course you’re a political scientist or philosopher).
I see this, instead, as a big grade school playground. A bunch of us want to play basketball, so we choose up sides. One side is shirts, and the other is skins.
I always preferred to be on the shirts team because, well, I’m flabby and pasty and many of my at-least-technically manly body parts should not be revealed in public. (Particularly if we’re going to be running and, oh the horror, jumping.)
In the same way, I’m a liberal. To a certain degree, I agree with Frank. Progressives are liberals who don’t want to be called liberals because it’s a dirty name. I, on the other hand, don’t mind being called a dirty name.
Hell. I’m an atheist, too.
February 7, 2008 at 4:24 pm
But the real question is, how dumb does “Progessive Fascism” sound? VERY.
CASE CLOSED.
February 7, 2008 at 4:24 pm
I don’t give a shit if you call me a “Correctocon Rex.” The opposition will always try to brand you, and factions will always try to brand themselves to win campaigns. That process isn’t about accurate descriptions or definitions.
February 7, 2008 at 4:51 pm
Quit trippin’. I’m a liberal social democrat.
John Holbo at CT a few years back with an interesting post about Peter Viereck.:
He was using abusive and obscene language, calling people Conservatives and all that.
Posted by John Holbo
A couple weeks ago Matt Yglesias noted the peculiarity of ‘unapologetic liberal‘. (File under ‘catechism of cliche’, ‘what sort of liberal is he?’) I thought I’d dredge up something from the files…
It’s the conservatives who disappeared, if Ike was a true conservative, and in my humble opinion he was. Bill Clinton was the best Republican preznit since Eisenhower. To most Europeans, Clinton and Obama are moderate conservatives and they are as far too the left as you can get here and still poll well, barring Gravel or Kucinich.
February 7, 2008 at 5:00 pm
What also make me laugh is the fact that conservative and liberal are always presented as direct opposites. Liberal and Totalitarian, or Conservative and Progressive might be more accurate.
Cat isn’t the opposite of dog. It’s not a matter of opposite ideologies, but rather coalitions of subsets who rally around that which they agree upon, and set aside that which they do not. The name branding is about winning, definitely not about describing. The only reason that factions would set aside their differences is to win and retain power.
…and that’s why we should call ourselves, “The Amazonauts.”
February 7, 2008 at 5:04 pm
Interesting question. Personally, I tend to use “Liberal” as a noun, and “Progressive” as an adjective. As in. “X is a liberal.” or “Y is progressive.”
I may use “liberal” as an adjective, but I don’t think I ever use “progressive” as a noun.
The largest problem is that the term “liberal” has been pretty successfully hijacked and turned into a perjorative by the reactionary right. Personally, I blame Mike Dukakis. When he was accused of being a liberal, he should have just said “Of course I’m a liberal. As should be any serious, thinking, caring person. Duh.” (Or words to that effect)
Nip that fucker in the bud, it would.
February 7, 2008 at 5:20 pm
Yeah, Herr Doktor, your point about Dukakis was exactly right, too bad his campaign manager is/was such a S.P.E.D.
February 7, 2008 at 8:27 pm
These are crumbs on a trail of retreat: Leftist, liberal, progressive… I think it stops there. No one will give much of a fuck about “progressive.”
February 7, 2008 at 9:58 pm
To me “progressive” is not some sort of euphemism for “liberal” so much as a word I associate with left campus activists in the mid- to late 1980s. Good-hearted, kind of naive kids shading into single-issue fanaticism, who wanted to make sure everyone pronounced “Nicaragua” correctly–the same ones who the wonky liberals gently tweaked as “politically correct” before it got picked up by the right as a term of abuse for anyone who wasn’t a racist asshole.
So “liberal” feels a bit more natural to me. But this sounds too much like Contempt for the Dirty Hippies, so I’ll stop.
February 8, 2008 at 8:04 am
I have a certain amount of rhetorical capital committed to this debate
February 8, 2008 at 11:01 am
How about “Liberal Front of America”?
But the only people we hate more than Republicans are the American Liberal Front. Fucking splitters.
February 8, 2008 at 11:46 am
Evolution isn’t progressive.
February 8, 2008 at 11:49 am
To me “progressive” is not some sort of euphemism for “liberal” so much as a word I associate with left campus activists in the mid- to late 1980s. Good-hearted, kind of naive kids shading into single-issue fanaticism, who wanted to make sure everyone pronounced “Nicaragua” correctly–the same ones who the wonky liberals gently tweaked as “politically correct” before it got picked up by the right as a term of abuse for anyone who wasn’t a racist asshole.
*ahem* you wouldn’t perchance be a fellow native berkeleyan, would you matt?
it’s why i loved the scene in “spanglish” where adam sandler’s character can’t pronounce “Flor”.
February 8, 2008 at 4:40 pm
Everyone should immediately click on the dquared link above, if only to encounter in its setting the line, “if there is a piece of shit in your stew, you need less shit, not more stew.”
February 8, 2008 at 8:46 pm
No, not from Berkeley–actually I went to a pretty conservative school. Those kids were there, there just weren’t that many of them.
February 9, 2008 at 5:50 am
I prefer to call myself liberal out of spiteful defiance, these days. Turn it into an insult, will they? Hmph. I’m happy to be a pinko egghead comsymp hippie motherfucker, too, as far as that goes.
As to becoming angelic Star Children, perhaps, or having the state whither away to some sort of glorious ponyarchy, it seems to me that you’re looking to spell that one word ‘wither’. ‘Whither away’ is kinda a Shakespearian dealio. Or something.
February 9, 2008 at 5:57 pm
BRIAN: Look. You’ve got it all wrong. You don’t need to follow me. You don’t need to follow anybody! You’ve got to think for yourselves. You’re all individuals!
FOLLOWERS: Yes, we’re all individuals!
BRIAN: You’re all different!
FOLLOWERS: Yes, we are all different!
DENNIS: I’m not.
ARTHUR: Shhhh.
February 9, 2008 at 9:06 pm
If you tell people you’re a progressive, what does that mean to them? I’m speaking of people who might not be particularly political. Progressive really has no instant connotation. However, if you say, “I’m a bleeding heart liberal,” the others have a pretty good idea where you stand on issues. And if you tell them, “I’m a fuckin’ bleeding heart liberal!”, they’ll have no doubts.
February 11, 2008 at 9:56 am
…ponyarchy…
I prefer the stunningly misspelled “hippocracy”, of which I was once accused on usenet, bastion of rational thought, which of course is a grown-up version of ponyarchy.
(“hypocracy” as synonym for “minarchy”, too.)
February 12, 2008 at 7:57 am
While reclaiming the term “liberal” is ok, it’s not enough as far as I’m concerned. We need to cut right through the hazy fog of obfuscation, and call ourselves what we are, dirty fuckin’ hippies.