Kosovo is free, and peace engulfs the land. Tim Judah (whose “War And Revenge” is a suitably depressing primer on the war in the 1990′s, in my not-remotely-expert opinion) looks at who’ll be voting themselves off Yugoslavian Survivor next week. Can’t wait.
Matt Yglesias has a rather odd retrospective on the American involvement, which begins:
With Kosovo’s formal declaration of independence from Serbia on Monday, and the United States’ decision to extend recognition to the planet’s newest country, the time has come for a look back on the approximately 10 years of intense U.S. involvement in that conflict. Kosovo is a tiny, seemingly worthless patch of land lacking in all natural resources, but it plays a strangely large role in our foreign-policy debates. During arguments about the Iraq War, in particular, liberal hawks had a habit of wielding the poor Kosovar Albanians as a cudgel: If you supported Bill Clinton’s 1999 bombing campaign, the argument went, then surely you could support a war against Saddam Hussein.
“If you’ll eat filet mignon, then surely you’ll eat this maggoty cow shit” is an argument with similar persuasive power. Unfortunately, Matt doesn’t provide any actual examples of this argument in the wild – I recall Tim Russert saying something along these lines at a Democratic debate in 2004, but I’m long past being surprised at Russert’s idiocy. One can think of any number of objections to the thrust of the article, the fundamental point is that it doesn’t seem particularly useful to look back at Kosovo primarily as the source of specious arguments possibly deployed by Americans with no influence on policy. Some shit isn’t about your office politics.
Later, in a related blog post:
At the end of the day, the only just solution for Canada, or for the former Yugoslavia, or for Iraq or Lebanon or anyone else necessarily involves the creation of tolerably liberal rights-respecting governments or else intolerably illiberal population transfers and ethnic cleansing. There’s no administrative fix whereby simply drawing the boundaries in just such a way solves the problem. To create really adequate solutions, the international community will have to find a way to create liberal regimes. And this, of course, is precisely what we don’t know how to do.
We don’t know how to do it because it can’t be done. You can’t impose liberal political solutions from the outside. The best you can do is stay engaged, try to manage, contain, and prevent these trivial things in boring, resource-poor, politically Byzantine backwoods from getting out of hand. You can regard examples of this as “modest successes” or unmitigated disasters - and you can carry Rwanda like a rugged cross or a potential disaster averted - but these are different descriptions of the same sobering realities. After the SSRI-overdose fairyworld of neocon foriegn policy, it might be worth returning to these things.
February 22, 2008 at 12:40 pm
“I recall Tim Russert”
Also Beinart, Igantieff, etc. And yeah, it’s weak and desperate as an argument for Gulf War II.
Yglesias: “In reality, Kosovo, though much less disastrous than Iraq, has, like Iraq, turned out to be more problematic than enthusiasts advertised and should, like Iraq, mostly inspire humility about what we can expect to achieve through force.”
Force worked pretty well in 1999 in convincing Serbia that killing Kosovars wasn’t worth continued NATO bombing, which was an appropriate nail to use the military hammer on. Gulf War II, OTOH, being an example of how you truly fuck up use of force. So yeah, I agree Eds. that Yglesias’ intervention solution being either liberal nation-building or ethnic cleansing is a false dilemma, and that the problems of the Balkans since ’99 are far from the worst-case scenarios.
February 22, 2008 at 12:42 pm
“Ignatieff”, that is.
February 22, 2008 at 1:36 pm
Yup. Some countries, we just can’t reach.
(Sorry. That was lame. But true.)
February 22, 2008 at 2:03 pm
Is it possible that Matthew is really just being a wanker on this issue? He’s kind of an emu, folks.
February 22, 2008 at 2:10 pm
The thing is, Kosovo and the Albanians were practicing their own brand of ethnic cleanisng and criminal rape/kidnapping and extortion by infiltrating from Albania for YEARS. That’s what Slobo Milosevic was resisting. Sorry to puncture y’all’s bubble, but the Albanians are NOT innocent. And the Euro’s were right again in letting the Serbs defend themselves. I have heard all kinds of ex-Yugoslavs, some with no animus one way or another, comment on this. All universally say the Albanians were at fault. Slovenians Bosnians Croats Serbs Macedonians and even Bulgarians say the same thing.
But hooboy didn’t Saudi Arabia want us to intervene for their Maoist Muslim co-(sorta)religionists? Because you do know, don’t you, that Albanians are still Maoist commies, right?
February 22, 2008 at 2:22 pm
Here we fucking go …
February 22, 2008 at 2:23 pm
“Sorry to puncture y’all’s bubble, but the Albanians are NOT innocent.”
No problem, it’s a straw bubble being punctured y’all.
February 22, 2008 at 3:12 pm
The real issues with the Balkans was that Milosovec was not properly deferential to US interests. The US was funding much worse ethnic cleansing in Turkey (and roughly equal monstrosities in Colombia) at exactly the same time, so the “humanitarian intervention” argument is laughable. Parallels abound with Sadam being Rumsfeld’s BFF in the 80′s (as he was gassing his on people) but somehow morphed into the most evil dictator ever ever ever in the late 90′s. Spankings are the rule once the dictators get all uppity.
February 22, 2008 at 3:22 pm
If somebody doesn’t mention phantom pipelines in the next few comments, I’m going to be very disappointed.
February 22, 2008 at 3:32 pm
“The phantom pipeline” — is that a surfer movie from the 60′s, or is that Cheech and Chong ca 1975?
February 22, 2008 at 3:38 pm
Matt,Slobo, Harmonic Convergence guy, Wes Clark should kick all your asses, but he won’t because he’s benevolent beat downer.
Balkans – You people are worse then the Irish! How many World War’s do you need to start before Mommy “sees” you. I see you, I see you Serbia. Eastern Orthodoxy is rad, we get it. Russia’s gonna catch such a slap one of these days… . I see you too Turkey, you’re all in the same cool clique, we get it.
February 22, 2008 at 3:49 pm
It’s the enormous network of pipelines that connect every point on the globe that Noam Chomsky tells us are full of fine socialist humanitarians like Slobodon Milosovic cruelly persecuted by America (often cleverly disguised as France, NATO, the Hague, HRW, Amnesty Int’l, or the UN), but somehow never seems to get built, or started, or sourced. When completed, the gin it provides will allow Chris Hitchens to create a martini so large it will blot out the Sun!
February 22, 2008 at 4:02 pm
Hup, there go the ants.
February 22, 2008 at 4:03 pm
The real issues with the Balkans
It might be best for us all to acknowledge that, in fact, we don’t know what the real issues were with the Balkans, or if there even was a “real” issue, as opposed to a bunch of different people pursuing different goals in not-necessarily effective ways.
The bottom line, as I see it, is that the proper business of the US government is governing the United States. Opposing the export of democracy by bayonet doesn’t require showing that the would-be exporters are secretly scary imperialists (even if some of them are); it’s enough that the actual capacity of the US to export democracy is zero or negative.
The fact that awful things are happening in some countryor region is not, in itself, an argument for dropping bombs on it.
February 22, 2008 at 5:11 pm
I don’t see why the only two choices are to do nothing or else go in and construct democracies in other countries. I think, without commenting in the specifics in the Balkins, eep!), that it is possible for it to make sense for us or the U.N. to interrupt or mitigate a humanitarian disaster. It seems to me that we could weigh the likely good we could do against the possible harm and the likely costs, and make decision on a case by case basis.
You know, stopping currently occurring ethnic slaughter in a country without much in the way of technology might be worth it, while invading and occupying a big heavily armed country because its leader tried to kill your dad, not so much.
February 22, 2008 at 5:25 pm
Editors, d00d, you’re so full of shit I’m suprised you don’t have a cloud of flies surrounding you at your desk. I know the “Chomsky luvs Slobo” bullshit* is an updated version of the old “Chomsky luvs Pol Pot” myth for people who are at least intelligent enough to be mortified by finding themselves repeating shit favored by David Horowitz and Alan Doucheowitz, but still – get some help in dealing with your irrational hatred of the dude, or just go eat a bag of dicks.
*From the first link, a teaser: So Milosevic is “undoubtedly” a “major war criminal”, who was doing “vicious things” before NATO bombed. Chomsky points out that the evidence – defined as reports issued from the Dutch, British Parliament, NATO, etc. all report that the NATO bombing escalated the atrocities. Referring to the reports of NATO and NATO countries is what qualifies as apologetics.
As they say, read the whole thing.
February 22, 2008 at 6:13 pm
“He should be appointed head of FEMA.”
*ahem* Watch the typos. That’s ‘a pointed head of’…
February 22, 2008 at 6:13 pm
I think, without commenting in the specifics in the Balkins, eep!), that it is possible for it to make sense for us or the U.N. to interrupt or mitigate a humanitarian disaster
Agreed. That’s why i think we should bomb, I mean, intervene with, whatever remains of Tom Green’s career.
February 22, 2008 at 6:28 pm
OK.
Seriously, if that’s the best Chomsky fanboys can manage these days, I don’t what the world’s coming to. I was not nice to Chomsky! And then, when challenged, I made specific reference to verifiable factual basis for such attacks! Are you going to let this stand? Are you going to sit there and take it? I demand – no, COMMON DECENCY demands! – that somebody take a stand! I have basically just raped 100,000 dead bodies in East Timor! For if there are two things that all decent people stand for, it is:
A. Making sure everybody says nice things about Noam Chomsky, all the time, always, no exceptions, ever.
B. People who are not down with A. are war criminals.
And where are my fucking pipelines? Man, I miss 1998. Chomskybots then were for real. Y’all n00bs ain’t for shit.
February 22, 2008 at 6:35 pm
Here, I’ll make it easier for you. In my opinion, Noam Chomsky’s prose style resembles an autistic child talking about his Pokemons. There: totally mean, painfully accurate for the devoted worshipper – yet completely subjective, and therefore unverifiable! Dig in! Have at! HUMAN DIGNITY IS AT STAKE!!!
February 22, 2008 at 6:52 pm
Well, yes and no. I’m not a world-renowned expert on this (or anything), and I suspect no one on this thread is much better. That said, a lot of people – journalists, human rights organizations, NATO, ICTY investigators – were there in real time, making a public record so that people wouldn’t all be making up their own just-so stories when discussing it. Most of the primary players are still alive, many have given statements under oath, etc. As with so many things, the raw material for determining the truth has been loudly placed in public view, but nobody actually cares.
Kosovo had nothing to do with promoting democracy. It was about stopping another round of ethnic cleansing in the Balkins, and – more importantly, perhaps – the inevitable refugee problem and embarassment this caused for nearby NATO states.
February 22, 2008 at 6:59 pm
You have been a little weird for Chomsky since 2002. I’m just saying.
February 22, 2008 at 7:03 pm
I do read him (Chomsky), and The Economist, and even books by Kissenger. I never got mental about any of the authors I’ve ever read…OK, The Neocons could make anyone mental.
Now kick Howard Zinn in the balls.
February 22, 2008 at 7:06 pm
I have been out of step with the internet consensus on him since then, and before, yes. He comes up in discussion here (I would guess) roughly every other year, roughly 1/50th as often as a bring up Kaye Grogan, and yet no one seems to find that odd. The references do stick in my memory as they tend to evoke the most OTT responses from certain corners. Others may remember them for other reasons.
I can only assume from the continued lack of pipeline references that y’all lack the moral courage to speak truth to power.
February 22, 2008 at 7:07 pm
Editors:
Your argument against Chomsky is pretty thin.
I’ve read all the links you and others have posted here, plus I know the mans books and articles very well, and also the pseudo-flaps entrenched pundits have created in their minds, and I think you’re way off base here. Which is really odd, because otherwise you’re exactly right on every word you’ve ever typed, ever.
February 22, 2008 at 7:08 pm
Your counterpoint doesn’t exist.
February 22, 2008 at 7:14 pm
“Your counterpoint doesn’t exist.”
I’ve never been to your website, if you have one.
February 22, 2008 at 7:16 pm
You didn’t just leave that comment.
February 22, 2008 at 7:27 pm
Because Kaye Grogan is hillarious and awesome, Noam Chomsky is just bad for your blood pressure. I hadn’t know until today what your beef was, now I do. He’s a “great” Linguist, a member of The National Academies of Science for Linguistic achievement not commentary, as he often points out. So I read Chomsky like I read you or” fill-in-the-blank”, as highly intelligent non-experts. I call you The virtuous grains of sand-copter.
February 22, 2008 at 7:35 pm
Not mine, amigo. Ever since John Cole quit drinking, I’ve been looking for a suitable replacement – today, o happenstance, I’m needling the Chomskybots. I’m not remotely as smart as Chomsky, but I also don’t have quite the messiah complex, so perhaps it evens out somehow. And if I’m dumber than ”fill-in-the-blank”, I’ve got that much more excuse for saying dumb shit. Like Football = Nazism.
Tomorrow: all Mavis Beacon.
February 22, 2008 at 7:50 pm
The current lot in power in the White House are the fucking most incompetent bunch of retards in world history (far worse than that dickhead A. Hitler Esq. – why people continue celebrate him beggar’s belief but that is another issue) so why anybody should think that anything good will come off anything whatsoever that they are involved in is beyond me. The Totally Independent Republic of Kosova/Kosovo (Not!) is well and truly fucked already!
February 22, 2008 at 8:23 pm
I’ve no opinion on Chomsky, or the breakup of Yugoslavia, but in the hope that sucking up could help keep you here: It is really good to see you posting often and kicking ass like this.
February 22, 2008 at 8:40 pm
No not dumb, just not an expert, that’s a good thing.
February 22, 2008 at 9:10 pm
“I came here for an argument”
“Oh, this is abuse, you want Mr. Blakey down the hall.”
February 22, 2008 at 9:19 pm
pipelines
February 22, 2008 at 9:31 pm
‘Bout time.
February 22, 2008 at 10:39 pm
a lot of people – journalists, human rights organizations, NATO, ICTY investigators – were there in real time, making a public record so that people wouldn’t all be making up their own just-so stories when discussing it.
Sure, but those folks weren’t — for the most part — the actual decision makers. And, it seems to me even the publicly available facts about Kosovo — e.g. the extent and, maybe more importnat, the timing of the ethnic cleansing — are hotly disputed among people who know a lot more than any of us. Anyway, I was trying to agree with you. Oh well.
pipelines
I was not actually aware that the (admittedly idiotic) strategic-pipeline-route argument was made re Kosovo. I recall that one more from Afghanistan. No?
February 22, 2008 at 11:30 pm
This is possibly the best thread ever, even if there are only 3/18 commenters are real, if that.
February 23, 2008 at 1:29 am
Here’s George Monbiot of the Guardian, noting that the pipeline through the former Yugoslavia “does not pass through the former Yugoslavia”. Lesser minds would be put off by this, but George sees declares victory.
Gore Vidal rode this rather hard, IIRC, and that means Chris Hitchens couldn’t be far behind. I’ll eat my hat if Alexander Cockburn & friends weren’t all over it, because there’s no way they’d let some MSM sellout like Monbiot look stupider than them. It was a pretty popular theory over at The Nation, and on Free Republic, too. Less popular, though still pretty prevalent, was the theory that the UN mission in Somalia was all about some secret pipeline. I don’t know if this predates Clinton, because I don’t predate Clinton, but it seems to be the default theory in certain circles for when you have no idea what you’re talking about and can’t be bothered to find out.
February 23, 2008 at 2:18 am
Whilst we’re at it,
Chomsky Talk
NY Times Book Review, Failed States
http://bostonreview.net/BR18.6/chomsky.html” rel=”nofollow”>Boston Review: Failed States
THE WAY WE LIVE NOW: 11-02-03: QUESTIONS FOR NOAM CHOMSKY; The Professorial Provocateur
Now we have the opportunity for thesis and antithesis on an interview, a book review, and a direct source piece. No z-net, a balanced piece, fast interview, and one in his own words.
February 23, 2008 at 2:21 am
Humanitarian Intervention by Chomsky from Boston Review,
February 23, 2008 at 7:29 am
A. Making sure everybody says nice things about Noam Chomsky, all the time, always, no exceptions, ever.
B. People who are not down with A. are war criminals.
Man, I’d settle for just laying off the overt bullshit; but if that’s too difficult, I’d simply charge you with plain old douchebaggery, a misdemeanor. Let’s not hyperventilate.
I just find it strange that hacktastic mainstream liberals keep telling me that there’s just these oceans of evidence showing how much of an insane America-hating filthy liar Noam is, but yet, you still find stuff like the Guardian less than three years ago being forced into an embarassing retraction over flat-out making shit up about him and his mancrush on Slobo. You would think it would be so easy to find something more substantial to hit him with, but instead we get this divining of his true thoughts via goat entrails and tea leaves, and charges of insufficient condemnation (because if there’s one thing you just never saw in the media during the late ’90s, it was condemnation of Milosevic. Unforgivable dereliction of duty on Noam’s part.) This makes me suspect that perhaps there are other motivations for the apoplectic attacks on the man. I mean, I know Eric Alterman is an incorrigible dickhead, but I didn’t want to believe that about you.
As far as your link, well, I’ll have to track down, you know, what he actually said instead of what other people say he said. I mean, I see a lot of claims that he said this and did that, but those claims are surprisingly link-free, with the links only attached to rebuttals (from people like Oliver Kamm, no less, who I hoped had been demonstrated via my earlier link to be, ah, less than believable). Sorry, but I’ve found that relying on other people to accurately tell me what he said/meant never works out well (again, the Guardian). But I appreciate the effort to have a dialogue, even if I am spittle-drenched at the moment.
February 23, 2008 at 9:22 am
Balls McCartney – I look forward to your next response, the one when you get around to reading the one and only link I sent you, 13 hours ago. Perhaps then you can explain how angry and irrational I am again, call me a douchebag, explain for the millionth time that the Guardian retracted a story, and lament that I won’t engage your exceedingly serious argument.
A conspiracy so vast … Now if you’ll excuse me, I have to get back to building that pipeline.
February 23, 2008 at 11:06 am
Well, I’m half-agreeing with you. But the point is that – like with, for example, global warming, or any other politically useful topic – people with a legitimate interest in this subject have spent decades making sure that the best evidence is as clear and publicly available as possible. (Their main audience is not people on the internets, I suspect, so much as governments, academics, HR orgs, etc., but the distribution is free and wide.) Meanwhile, people who find these truths politically inconvenient kick up a cloud of dust, trot out know-nothing “experts”, and hope the general public finds everything too confusing and goes back to missing white women. This is how you “win” an argument when you’re utterly, abjectly wrong and full of shit. Presumably there are topics of legitimate dispute, details and subtleties we will never know, but the overall timeline and the general extent and direction of the killing are not, AFIAK, in any serious dispute. Unless HRW, the Red Cross, the UN, NATO, essentially every journalist in the free world, Tim Judah, Peter Lippman, (and, I have just learned, me), etc. are all involved in a vast conspiracy to make the readership of ZMag, Antiwar, Counterpunch, assorted anonymous windbags on the internets, etc. look stupid. Always a possibility to consider loudly before reading anything which may contain apostasy.
Again, I’m not claiming any particular expertise (and I am, in my heart of hearts, an anonymous internet windbag), I welcome correction, and I’m not trying to pick a fight with you. But (again, like global warming, and like so many things) questions which would be impossible for dudes on the internets to answer based on general knowledge have been gone over at great effort and expense by people who have devoted their lives to the study of them, and the answers have been delibrately placed in the most obvious places. The writing is often deadly dull, and I’m not saying everybody should quit their jobs and read the ICTY transcipts/IPCC reports from beginning the end or STFU forever, but their existence and thrust are easily ascertained, and anybody who poses as an expert and yet has no familiarity with these things (or assiduously avoids them) is not to be trusted. Again, please don’t take this as a personal attack, but it’s just not worth throwing away all these people’s work just to avoid hurting random internets fanboys’ feelings. This isn’t fundamentally about Matt Y. or you or me or the pseudointellectual boner idol de jour, is the main fucking point, and shouldn’t be viewed through that lens.
February 23, 2008 at 11:34 am
Look I don’t care who has a thang for Slobo or nobo. In fact I am quite willing to admit he sucked. But how is it that every damb ex Yugo national I talk to says the Serbs grievances with Albanians in re Kosovo are real, and they got a pushback on them wherein they the Maoist Muslims commenced to whine to their buds the Saudis and like good little Marionettes, the USofA, that time under Clinton, asked ‘how high, Mr Faisal?’ and thus we went in to save the poor poor rape torture and kidnapping Albanians’ bacon. Whenas the rest of Europe, perhaps quite wisely, said ‘no fucking way’.
Now, how can one be both a Maoist and a Muslim?
I dunno but the Hoxha brothers managed it somehow. Maybe by just hating Europeans and European civilization to the max.
February 23, 2008 at 11:43 am
Your link starts with war crimes of 1998.
The criminality incursions by gangs of Albanians began a least a decade before that. And many times in that decade, people and families extorted by ALbanians had to ‘confess’ to being mistaken or give false evidence against NonAlbanians because the Titoist regime didn’t want to ruffle feathers. Of course maybe Atanasova, Juranic, Illich, and Atanasova’s friend Branka, the ex-Yugoslav TV news reporter; all of whom corroborate the same stories, are all full of shit.
February 23, 2008 at 11:47 am
And I journeyed in 1997 to a summer school in Rovinj Coratia (where I was teaching), and was real proud of my country’s intervention. Until I got set straight by the attendees, except for one Macedonian kid who said ‘thank God for President Clinton’, because American troops kept BOTH Serbs and Albanians from crossing over into Macedonia.
February 23, 2008 at 12:13 pm
secondharmonic – I don’t know why ex-Yugoslavs of your acquaintance say what you say they say. Maybe they don’t like Muslims. This is not unheard of in the Balkans – see the 1990, ethnic cleansing, etc. Maybe you should ask them instead of me. But, generally, ‘these dudes I know’ are not considered the magic bullet evidence for overturning historical consensus.
NATO – meaning most of Europe – was involved in the Kosovo bombing, as well as in previous military and diplomatic efforts in the Balkans. Belgium, Denmark, France, Iceland, Italy, Luxembourg, Netherlands, Norway, Portugal, Great Britain, Greece, Turkey, Germany, Spain, Czech Republic, Hungary, and Poland were all intimately involved with the day-to-day operations. Saudi Arabia wasn’t much involved. Kosovar Albanians were routinely kidnapped and tortured by Serbian forces. I don’t know if these pretty basic facts are new to you, but it’s hard to know what you’re saying. Is there a place where what you think happened has been written down? Have you read, like, a Wikipedia article about this? Or anything?
How can one be a Christian and a millionaire? What the hell are you talking about?
February 23, 2008 at 12:22 pm
Ah. I see now. Much clearer.
It should also be noted that Yugoslavia was torn apart by centuries-old ethnic hatred in the 1990′s: mass graves, ethnic cleansing, the whole nine. All of it was conducted and supported, on all sides, by random Balkan dudes (and dudettes, and dudelings). I don’t know if you knew that or not, but I suspect it goes a long way towards explaining the opinions of your dudes. FWIW, my brother taught in Muslim Bosnia, and they all love Wes Clark and Bill Clinton and probably know some very imaginative stories about how your friends eat babies or whatever. Now I’ve closed the all-important Random Balkan Dude Anecdote Gap, I suggest you try a new methodology.
February 23, 2008 at 12:36 pm
Shame on me. Everyone knows it has to start in 1389.
February 23, 2008 at 12:37 pm
Those few I mentioned were just the ones I work with and see every day.
As for Juranic and his wife — they have been in the US since 1986.
That of course doesn’t mean they aren’t necessarily current, but whatever actual accounts they knew of from firsthand predated this. And I think it likely that your acquaintences loved them Wes Clark and Bill Clinton. As I say, that happened to me too. But maybe not from Serbs and not from Croats so much.
But I was surprised (and I am a Dem) at the vehemence with which Colin Powell was disliked by my acquaintences (this is 1997, remember). As I suspect maybe your brother was as well.
February 23, 2008 at 12:41 pm
Nor do I see why anecdotes are so dispised per se’. I have related the story to you, as it was to me, of how the ‘official’ story of persecutions may not even be expected to tally with the sum total of individual histories. Of all the people I have talked to about these matters, in Croatia as in Rochester, Minnesota, the sum total is about 25. That is not a small number.
February 23, 2008 at 12:44 pm
Damn…. am I talking to an Obamaite? Was I dissing your candidate without my knowing it?
I just mentioned your link starts in 1998, the stuff I know about predates this. I went there in 1997. So anything about that latter action, I was not inquiring then about.
February 23, 2008 at 12:45 pm
Anecdotes are not ‘dispised’ – they are very nice. A like anecdotes. But the plural of ‘anecdote’ isn’t ‘data’. Example 40 billion .
February 23, 2008 at 12:49 pm
And yes thank you I did know about the battle of Kosovo before you linked it.
And the battle of Vienna not long before, when the Poles pushed the Saracen knights off of the Steinhugel.
Or something.
And how King Richard was found by his minstrel when the latter sang a bawdy somg at Graf Waldensee’s Berg and he heard an echo from the dungeon that was Richard singing along with him.
Know that one too.
Care to impress me with your midaeval knowledge some more?
February 23, 2008 at 12:53 pm
Ah yes, the argument from Avogadro’s number.
Should be really effective against a physical chemist like me.
But then again a lot of people are getting a lot of money nowadays to study ‘single molecules’. Which seems pretty ‘anecdotal’ to me.
Anyhow the total number of trajectories of all sorts taken by those doing single molecule work, or even those doing even more removed from reality molecular dynamics simulations, is a very small fraction of 40 billion.
February 23, 2008 at 1:56 pm
And, moreover, the Patriots got totally pwn3d by the Giants!
So, there!
That I think puts the final nail into your objectively proMaoistislamofascist position.
February 23, 2008 at 2:12 pm
At the risk of repeating myself, I think you’re missing a large number of points by an increasingly wide margin. I’d be more specific, but every time I try to read one of your comments, I start tripping.
But I know dudes from Yugoslavia who say they won. Ad everybody knows that the Saudis told the NFL to let the Giants win so they could build a pipeline through Belichick’s sweatshirt. Q.E.D.
February 23, 2008 at 3:32 pm
My “exceedingly serious argument” consists of telling you that Chomsky never claimed that Milosevic was a “fine socialist humanitarian” and backing it up with a link. I mentioned the Guardian story twice (or a million times, apparently) because – correct me if I’m wrong – it seems to have a direct connection to this very issue. I think you’ve demonstrated your anger clearly enough here (and pretty much any time anyone questions your wisdom, really) without me needing to explain anything about it. I don’t know if you got a hackysack in the eye as a kid, or maybe a stoner dude in college burned a hole in your favorite couch, or perhaps you went on a long car trip once with nothing to listen to but a Grateful Dead bootleg, but your hatred for hippies/leftists/potheads is fairly well-known, I think.
Anyway, I’ve been reading the link. Hell, I read Berube’s post and comments when it went up. But as I said, I’ve been supplementing your generous gift with Noam’s own words where I can find them. Hell, man, I believe it was only a year or so ago that you were telling us that Noam about to kick any minute now (when he had actually long since dealt with his prostate cancer). So do forgive me if I don’t consider you an up-to-date accurate one-stop shop on all things Chomsky. I suspect you made up your mind about him a long time ago and have long since stopped looking for any reason to think otherwise.
I can’t comment on his “support” for Seselj’s Serbian Radical Party, for example, because the supposed English link is actually in Italian. I’m skeptical, I admit, because I’ve seen how hacks like Alterman try to turn his “support” for Faurisson into something more sinister.
David Watson says: “Misrepresenting the Dutch report—which by the way has been widely criticized for its inaccuracies and errors…”, but unless I’ve overlooked something obvious, I don’t see a link to this Dutch report, and again, being a suspicious sort, I’m not inclined to take Watson’s assurances of it being “widely criticized” at face value.
I’ve been looking for the passage in the British parliamentary inquiry that Kamm mentions (and checking to see if this is indeed the inquiry in question), but again, Kamm’s been caught bullshitting about Chomsky before, so we’ll see how that turns out.
Above all else, I’d really rather just see an actual debate between Chomsky and one of his detractors on these issues, so I’m still looking for something along those lines.
Does that all satisfy you w.r.t. my seriousness? Wouldn’t want you to think ill of me as you stand there tapping your toes and checking your watch. But I imagine this post will be off the front page by the time I’m done, so maybe we’ll just pick it up the next time you feel like dismissing his entire forty-plus year career over some vague ambiguous statement.
February 23, 2008 at 4:30 pm
Fascinating. Approaching 24 hours and you still show no interest in actually reading the one tiny link, although we know have a fistful of reasons for why you won’t bother, and, in addition, I learn that I have been making fun of Chomsky’s cancer and praying for his death. And I have a childhood hippie trauma. Also, the Guardian has spoken so case closed. It must be very frustrating for you that no one will engage your highly serious argument highly seriously.
February 23, 2008 at 7:41 pm
But the plural of ‘anecdote’ isn’t ‘data’.
In fact, they are the exact opposite!
Data is Latin for “given”. In Roman correspondence, you dated a letter by writing “given (to the messenger) on this day.” (Obviously, this is where our word “date” comes from as well.) At some point in medieval times, the usage data: a date was extended to data: any specific piece of information.
Anecdote, on the other hand, is from the ancient Greek for “not given (out). (There’s a common Indo-European root.) That was the title given to collections of scandalous court gossip that were “not given” in the official records.
See? Exact opposites!
(I looked this up a while back in the hopes that it would turn out that etymologically anecdote really was the plural of data — that would have made for a truly awesome bit of pedantry. But this way is almost as good.)
February 23, 2008 at 8:40 pm
I used to work with a fella from Kosovo. Very nice person. Honest, hard-working, funny…everyone really liked him. I don’t know any Serbs or Albanians. Therefore, I have to say The Editors wins this argument. No, no, no, no.. sorry, talk to the hand!
February 24, 2008 at 3:01 am
What the fuck?
February 24, 2008 at 7:56 am
Approaching 24 hours and you still show no interest in actually reading the one tiny link
Apparently you seriously can’t read, since I addressed quite a bit about it upthread, or you’re just a fucking jerkoff who insists on arguing with the voices in your head. I’ve read your fucking link, you stupid shit. So far, I don’t consider it that impressive, but as I said, I’m actually looking for more about the subject. I see what four people say about Chomsky’s interview with the New Statesman, one of whom I’m taking with a whole goddamn shaker full of salt (you did, in turn, read my first link, did you not?). I see that he supposedly expressed “support” for a war criminal, but I don’t see a link to this expression of support, at least not in English. And this may surprise you, but I haven’t been online for 24 straight hours.
I learn that I have been making fun of Chomsky’s cancer and praying for his death.
Go back upthread, read what the fuck I said, and tell me how I accused you of “making fun” of anything or praying for his death. Seriously – go do it, and when you can’t find a way to honestly come up with that interpretation, then go teabag yourself. I used it as an example of how you frequently don’t know what the fuck you’re talking about when it comes to Chomsky. Apparently, you don’t even know what the fuck you’re talking about regarding comments in this very thread, so I guess I shouldn’t be surprised.
And here, since you insist on being willfully dense, let me break it down for you: The Guardian recently got caught making shit up about Noam’s supposed beliefs about Milosevic and his crimes. Lying. Flat-out claiming he said things he never said. Unless you just have an irrational hatred of the man (and it’s clear you do), this should make you suspicious of similar claims, because – and this is key, so pay attention, douchebag – why make shit up if there’s supposedly so much ironclad proof you could use instead? But I’m just being silly, I suppose, for thinking that this is somehow directly related to other people claiming the same sort of thing.
Of course, it’s hardly limited to the editors at the Guardian, as people from Horowitz to Dershowitz to Alterman to DeLong routinely do the same thing. Somehow though, flaming assholes like you politely ignore those things (at least when it’s fellow sensible liberals doing it) without asserting that their fanatical drive to purposefully misrepresent what Chomsky actually said is proof of some malignant character defect that renders them unfit for ever being taken seriously again from now to the end of time. In Noam’s case, of course, anything debatable he ever says is proof of exactly that, case closed.
The worst you could say, assuming all this is true, is that Chomsky’s view of how the U.S. uses its power has become a Procrustean bed for him. Small wonder if that is the case; after all, he’s been right to see it that way far more often than not. Funny, though, how his detractors don’t settle for accusing him of being wedded to an outdated worldview; that’s not sexy enough! They try to claim that he secretly loves murderous dictators and gets off on thousands of Bosnian corpses, which isn’t absurd on the face of it at all. That, of course, is the mark of Serious Punditry, the kind that gets an approving link from the shithead whose main talent is making funny komix.
It would be sort of like, oh, let’s say, if someone even hinted that since you were such a demonstrable fucking idiot on everything from the Iraq War to the worth of Jeff Goldstein’s writings a mere three or four years ago (pretty recently, even you must admit), your opinions from here on should always be suspect, and you should never have the benefit of the doubt. Why, I think you might consider that unfair. You might even react angrily, I imagine.
But whatever, I suppose. Like I said, it’s clear you made up your mind about the man a long fucking time ago and poured the cement in immediately afterwards. I’m just glad to have disabused myself of the notion here that you were a smart guy who at least made a sincere effort to not be a dishonest hack.
February 24, 2008 at 8:29 am
Excuse me, I wandered in here looking for lighthearted compare’n'contrasts between Actors Noted for a playing a Certain Type of Role or Character, and Other Actors similarly Noted, although perhaps on a Smaller Scale. Is this the right place, or have I taken a wrong turn?
February 24, 2008 at 11:26 am
Wow. I really need to calm down. I sound like I’m obsessed!
February 24, 2008 at 11:38 am
Let me see: obsessive ZMag fanboyism, telepathic powers, lists of apostates confused with argument, Goldsteinian limp-dick prose and self-regard … you aren’t some brave boy’s sockpuppet, by any chance, are you, Balls?
February 25, 2008 at 12:15 am
I think an argument is something you can have if you can win or lose. This isn’t an argument.
February 25, 2008 at 1:45 am
Oh Editors, you are trolling yourself!
February 25, 2008 at 2:07 am
Also, my bad. I forgot The Editors and Retardo hate each other. I wasn’t paying attention to the actual words and positions because I am too tired, but now I see that pain is the desired outcome here. I guess I’m not into that.
February 25, 2008 at 7:08 am
Hey I even think Chomsky was wrong about his linguistics – e.g. that his supposed ‘universal grammar’ doesn’t exist, for if it did, it would be an innate set of skills/concepts, and we would have some genetic or epigenetic evidence for such innatism, which we don’t, so it ain’t.
But that’s just me.
February 25, 2008 at 7:17 am
Chomsky is the Hayek of Liberal Fascism!
Or something.
February 25, 2008 at 7:45 am
Here’s a recent article, by Scahill, not known to be a Chomskyian:
http://www.alternet.org/audits/77546/?page=entire
February 25, 2008 at 11:42 am
Helloooo? Balls? Balls? Is it something I said?
February 25, 2008 at 12:01 pm
Gotta stop taking those ice-cold showers, man.
February 25, 2008 at 12:25 pm
*rimshot*
February 25, 2008 at 1:47 pm
If I were going to be snarky, I might say that
1)Your statement that maybe all those Yugoslavs hate Muslims — that’s some pretty big generaliztion going on. Sure yeah, everybody over there just hates them some Muslims. Even if Elena Atanasova IS part Albanian. And even if she and everybody in her acquaintance was brought up, per Tito to show respect for all ethnicities.
2) Case Histories — anecdotes or data?
3) War and Revenge — out of 300 or so pages, how many are anecdotes and nothing but anecdotes? How many pages of Tables do we have here? I look at Amazon.com and I see a lot of random pages from the book have anecdotes. Nothing BUT anecdotes. Of course 50 some interlocuters IS, in binary, an order of magnitude more than 25.
I’ll grant you that.
4) Maybe it’s just that the Albanians are like Texans — what unites them is far more significant than what differentiates them, they are all Texans and are all hated by everyone else everywhere else. Because of their Texan-ness.
But feel free to start loving Tony Romo now.
February 25, 2008 at 3:57 pm
I was emailed about this thread before the sockpuppet accusation, and I wasn’t going to say anything before (contenting to let the formerly pro-war Editors stew in his own failure), but now I have to just to call him the lying sack of shit that he is.
You, Andy, know roughly where I live and what my IP should be; ergo, you know I can’t be Balls McCartney or indeed anyone else on this thread. You just said it out of desperation, and because Balls reminded you that despite your best robots.txt efforts, a lot of people remember what a stupid fucking idiot, war-cheerleading, Steyn- and Jonah- and Goldstein-complimenting jackass you were. Sorry, I know you want to forget all about that yourself but c’mon — you’re not Madonna, you don’t have to believe in your own makeovers. And at least you’re funnier than Yglesias and Ezra, though they have a bit more grace and confidence…
February 25, 2008 at 4:15 pm
Spazzatura – That’s quite a tale. I’m quite sure I have no idea who the fuck you are or where you live, I don’t spend my time looking at lists of IPs, and I couldn’t care less. You’re one of the Jeff Goldsteins who comes around here and leaves 50,000 word posts of unreadable autodidact fanboy gibberish now that Jeff Goldstein has moved on to other things. Afer you, there will be others, and I’ll hold them just as near to my heart. They probably won’t have quite the uniquely awful prose style that you so effortlessly express, but I’m sure they will have something to recommend them. Lotta fish in the sea and all that.
So: go fuck yourself. Or don’t. Or go lurk around here for another few years, seething, thinking up new names of the form “pop culture figure with first-name pun” and try to screw up the courage to defend your idols from very mean dudes on the internets. Dream of further brave and bold pants-sniffing investigations into who linked to Matt Welsh in 2003 and how that proves you’re not a loser. A matter of periodic sport, but mostly indifference to myself, and probably anybody who reads this. Call yourself what you please – you’re a bad writer with nothing to say. Nobody gives a shit what you think.
February 25, 2008 at 4:23 pm
“I have to just to call him the lying sack of shit that he is.”
That’ll larn him.
Sack. Of. Shit. (Makes me feel all butch typing that, I can see the attraction.)
February 25, 2008 at 11:12 pm
Who’s this ‘Editors’ dickhead and why is he allowed to practically monopolize the comments section of this otherwise fine blog? Isn’t anyone in charge around here?
February 26, 2008 at 7:13 am
Lot’s of good fish in the sea in the sea in the sea…
Yeah and just yesterday I was watching *Topsy Turvy.*
Concilience and Serendipity strikes again.
The Ditors and Sifu Tweety Fish — the Bennett Cerf and Art Buchwals of Liberal Fascism.
Or maybe that’s Lenny Bruce and Mort Sahl.
February 26, 2008 at 7:13 am
The Editors, that is…
February 26, 2008 at 7:14 am
and Art Buchwald.
February 26, 2008 at 7:59 am
Only 84 comments on a post about the Balkans? After four days? Damn, people just aren’t trying anymore. I remember when a reference to the Balkans on a blog could get you a couple hundred comments with links to the complete works of Diana Johnstone, all in 24 hours or less. Those were good times! Indeed, that is central to my point.