March 21, 2008
DeLong:
I’d say a few minimally-informed things:
1. Marxism, in the twentieth century sense, is no longer a going concern. A few countries and groups still cling to the label: China, which is Marxist in the Wal*mart sense; the FARC - Marxist in the Al Capone sense; North Korea - Marxist in the Sauron sense; Cuba; others more or less notable; the list ends here. I can’t speak for anyone’s particular social circle, but today, 2 decades after the collapse of the Soviet Union, the idea of a mass movement anywhere which even pretends to read Marx and/or Lenin as catechism is a little far fetched - about as far fetched as it was during his lifetime, in fact. Now, as then, he’s less a boogeyman than this one dude who wrote some books two centuries ago.
2. He wrote some books ~150 years ago, so it’s not surprising that the intervening years will have made him seem foolish in some ways. His racism, like the racism of 99% of his contemporaries, is vulgar and embarrassing. I stand second to none in my inability to understand basic concepts of economics, but the idea of defining value as “input labor” seems perverse (those who disagree are welcome to purchase my high score at Pac-Man - we’ll start the bidding at a cool million.) The Alienation of Labor is the sort of thing that probably makes sense to people who’ve never had jobs, the rest of us just call it Work. Etc., etc. All these are true specifically of Marx; many of these and many other things could be said of any of his contemporaries and many of his predecessors. Judged as a man, rather than a World Historical Figure, he’s perhaps not as great as some, but he’s as good or better than many.
3. It’s somewhat fair to accuse Marx of advocating a “world-religion” - people have certainly viewed it that way, and one gets the sense that Marx’s own atheism might have been motivated by a desire to get rid of the competition. But it’s not entirely fair. Marx was very pompous, as are many people, especially intelligent people who can’t see their own limits. Choosing to read him, or any mortal, like Holy Writ is entirely the fault of the reader, and leads to predictable and unfortunate results. That said, when placed next to his contemporaries, he stands out as a critical thinker. Nineteenth century laissez-faire- the water he was swimming in -was not a particularly hard-headed ponyology, any more than its nearest modern relatives are, and the majority of his comrades in the zoo of left-wing utopianism tend to accept the ‘withering away of the State’ deux ex machina with considerably less critical concern for how such an unprecedented thing might be practically brought about (and why it would actually be desireable this time). Of course, he was no more ’scientific’ than any other political thinker before or since, but he did have that most under-appreciated virtue of concreteness. Concreteness, unlike wishful thinking, can be criticized. One can read Marx (or, as I and most people do, send someone else to do it while we eat cookies), draw up lists of ideas Marx expressed, take their measure, decide where they stand up and where they fall down, and pick out the good bits knowing with some specificity what one is agreeing or disagreeing with. Progress can be made. Compared with wishful-thinking utopianism, or the whatever-it-is that is trying to fill his shoes in our century, to say nothing of the empty PR-talk which defines our own political discourse, it is something to be thankful for. (His prose and the prose he inspired is, admittedly, another story.)
4. If we’re going to blame Marx for the evils of Communism - an ideology and system which owes and expresses considerable debt to his works - what do we do with modern Social Democracy, and its very close cousin, American Liberalism? We don’t generally read much Marx, as it’s very boring and somewhat disreputable, and our inheritance is certainly not direct, but it’s hard to imagine our contemporary understanding of class (and race, and so on) without reading, reacting to, reacting against, and to some degree assimilating major criticisms and lessons of Marx. A concrete example: American communists were decades ahead of mainstream liberalism on questions of racial and sexual equality. True, it could easily be argued that this has nothing to do with, and is even contrary to, what Marx himself actually said. But one could just as easily say the same about the idea of Communist revolution in Tsarist Russia or the benighted Third World. The inspiration was, nonetheless, there. Viewed less as a prophet and Cold War icon, and more as this one dude who said all this stuff 150 years ago, this might be easier to appreciate.
5. Aphorisms.
My $0.02.
March 21, 2008 at 5:07 pm
History repeats itself, first as tragedy, second as farce.
March 21, 2008 at 5:28 pm
I can’t speak for anyone’s particular social circle, but today, 2 decades after the collapse of the Soviet Union, the idea of a mass movement anywhere which even pretends to read Marx and/or Lenin as catechism is a little far fetched - about as far fetched as it was during his lifetime, in fact.
Those retarded Chavezistas in Venezuela are committed Marxist-Leninists, the bullshit about being “21st century socialists” notwithstanding.
March 21, 2008 at 5:33 pm
Which was the one when he fell down and down the stairs and never let go of his cigar? That was great.
March 21, 2008 at 8:53 pm
I find that, for the most part, chicks dig commies.
March 21, 2008 at 9:05 pm
that’s because they control the means of seduction.
March 21, 2008 at 11:07 pm
- Immanuel Wallerstein
(I used to have a bumper sticker on my car that said Marxists Get Crazy Laid.)
March 22, 2008 at 4:21 am
Marxism is the dominant “question” for political philosophy for lack of an other new idea. You’re either pro-Marx or anti-Marx in 20th century philosophy, that’s why Marx is still the most important philospher. Not important as in super rad, important as in setting the pro- or con- agenda. Obviously Con-Marxism has won. Capitalism, a kind of capitalism not pure Adam Smith capitalism with Keynes style European Socialism is the winner. I wouldn’t mind if we adopted a lot of the ideas from Norway, Finland, Sweden and Denmark. Not every idea is a gem, but them seem to have gotten the right mix of democracy, capitalism, reform, a commitment to progression and continuing to evolve. They seem to have learned from the mistakes of the past in Europe after years of war and horrible class disparities, and have very free, democratic, societies that promote the commonwealth. They have learned that they can get more done together then alone, and a lot of crime and suffering can be mitigated with human ingenuity.
So if Marx lost, and Dick Cheney are wrong, democratic secular humanism with rationale social safety nets, a commitment to national K-Grad School education as a beneficial investment into your people, (In Denmark you get paid pretty well to go to school, instead incurring crippling debt.)
I tell you what you match our constitution with well regulated markets and a common sense approach to pooling resources for things we need like education and medical care, we’d be up to speed to the countries that took the best from Marx and left the rest. It would be wise to pick some of those cherries.
March 22, 2008 at 4:32 am
These countries have these laws because they took the money out of the system to assuage the real, significant, and detrimental effects of quid pro quo and the micro-economic environments that evolve from systems like ours, When plutocracy invades democracy we are all alienated from our natural rights AND we get bad laws and a government that doesn’t work.
We can’t fix a thing before we remove as much money from the system as possible, first. They have no economic interest in making good laws, their economic interests lie in a never ending process, just like any other middle-man.
March 22, 2008 at 7:03 am
Interesting. I hadn’t seen Brad in a while. He’s lost weight hasn’t he?
March 22, 2008 at 7:45 am
I think Marx’s version of the labor theory of value is not bad. The labor theory of value was belabored long by the classical economists. The thing being of course, that at any time frame, not just the imaginary ‘equilibrium’ point, it just isn’t true — the price of things in any system equating equivalent goods at a set value, is just not proportional to the labor employed in making them, ever. But what then, under any rules soever, under Smithian perfect markets or any other kind of market, what then sets the ‘equilibrium’ or even transient price level (in a determinative way we mean, IOW the answer - nothing at all, or the Laws of Chance is not an acceptable answer to the classical folks). So Marx’s solution, which was rather clever, was that it was proportional to the *labor power* involved. Ah so what is this ‘labor power’? - it is the ability to do work/time via human labor (i.e. including the price of machinery and even of the material and informational vehicles with which to obtain machinery, e.g. the price of money itself).
March 22, 2008 at 4:17 pm
Again, I defer to nobody in my naivity abot all thing economic, but there seems to be a problem here, in that Marx’s definition of ‘value’ has almost nothing to do with what anybody means when they say ‘value’. No purchaser actually valuates things primarily - let alone exclusively - based on how many man-hours, etc. went into making it. I gather that there was no generally accepted useful answer to the Socratic “what is value?” at that time, but his answer seems to be to re-define value as some slightly related thing he’d rather talk about. I imagine you’d find yourself in trouble if you ran your business, let alone a country, with that kind of understanding. And it seems like that’s the track record.
March 22, 2008 at 4:31 pm
My grasp of economics is matched only by my nuanced understanding of Venezuelan politics.
March 22, 2008 at 5:08 pm
Ah, the 1% doctrine. It just so happens that this number also corresponds to the amount of the total that this administration knows about Foreign Policy. And judging by the comments made by our Republican elite in just this past week, 1% of the total of what these people know about Foreign Policy is obviously a number that has been rounded up.
March 22, 2008 at 7:32 pm
I’m about to teach Marx to 9th graders next week, and one thing always sticks out about Marx. As a “physician” he was a decent diagnostician, but a lousy surgeon. IOW, he knew was was wrong, but his attempts to fix it were hapless.
I’ve actually had some success teaching the Marxist dialectic to the wee 14 year olds.
If we look at Marx’s dialectic, we can see that laissez faire capitalism was the “thesis” and socialism/communism was the “antithesis”. Marx assumed that this conflict would lead to world wide proletariat revolution and the end of history.
Instead, we got a new synthesis: welfare state capitalism. A good student of the dialectic would recognize that this does not invalidate Marx as a historian.
March 22, 2008 at 10:22 pm
No, please not thesis and antithesis! Dialectics is not a magic formula. Really, it’s not.
All dialectics means is, is recognizing that when A influences B, B also influences A. We can’t see the reality — or at least social reality, natural science might be different — only in terms of simple relationships of cause and effect. And in particular we have to recognize this about the world, and our ideas about it.
March 22, 2008 at 10:23 pm
Secondharmonic-
I’m with you in spirit. But the labor theory of value as a quantitative explanation of relative prices just doesn’t work. There’s no mathematically consistent solution to the transformation problem. Sorry. (If you have a freakish, unhealthy interest in this stuff you could read Ian Steedman’s Marx After Sraffa, which is pretty definitive.) It’s unfortunate that people are still banging their heads against this particular wall. (Well, ok, Anwar Shaikh and like three of his students. But still.) Personally, I like to think that if Marx had lived longer he would have recognized that he’d gone up a blind alley on this, altho of course it doesn’t matter.
What the labor theory of value *is* useful for is reminding us that labor has a special role in capitalism. When I trade my labor for wages, I’m doing something quite different from trading turnips for shrimp. It reminds us that the exploitation and authority in the workplace are the flip side of free exchange in the market; it focuses our attention on the division between workers and owners that exists in any capitalist society; and it reminds us that both capitalism’s achievements and its flaws lie in the organization of production, not exchange.
In that sense, the labor theory of value is very, well, valuable. But the stronger claims Marx wanted to make about prices and profit rates? sorry, that part doesn’t work.
March 23, 2008 at 12:17 am
The editors at 11 make an interesting point. I would bet that someone in some political, economic, or philosophical l journal has tried to address that, maybe in the other part of the world. There isn’t a lot intellectual pioneering in Marxism in the west recently, (as far as I know), but I bet they go to town in colleges in other spheres of influence.
I don’t consider the USSR or the PR China to be Marxist. They may claim they are this or that, doesn’t make it so. It’s hard to do justice to a philosophy that only seems to be capable of existing in a lab. It’s a bit like quantum physics.
March 23, 2008 at 5:15 pm
1) I can’t get the videos to work, but that’s probably just me, or rather my broken-ass old laptop.
2) The labor theory of value. I don’t pretend to be able to understand the debates about the transformation problem. There do seem to be various mathematically consistent ways of resolving it, the question is only whether any of these can support the theoretical consequences Marx drew about the causes of economic crises in capitalism. But, I think I can say that The Editors is off-base with his critique. Marx doesn’t claim that value is determined simply by input labor, but rather by “abstract socially necessary” labor - in other words, the price of any commodity will tend towards equilibrium at the value of its inputs, and the only one of those inputs which does not, in turn, derive its value directly from its own inputs is labor, so that ultimately all “value added” derives from labor. This is not utterly dissimilar from what a modern economics class will tell you about a situation of “perfect competition”, where, IIRC, prices will tend to drop towards the cost of input plus a standard economy-wide return on investment. The reasoning is similar - competition is key. Labor is special in that the value it adds to a commodity is not simply a function of workers’ wages.
3) I think it’s pretty unfair to view Marx as simply a “vulgar and embarrassing” racist, even if you excuse him as a man of his times. He was an early and committed opponent of slavery and colonialism, and while some of his private letters contain ugly racist language, intellectually he understood racism for what it is. Some quotes:
Every industrial and commercial center in England now possesses a working class divided into two hostile camps, English proletarians and Irish proletarians. The ordinary English worker hates the Irish worker as a competitor who lowers his standard of life. In relation to the Irish worker he feels himself a member of the ruling nation and so turns himself into a tool of the aristocrats and capitalists of his country against Ireland, thus strengthening their domination over himself. He cherishes religious, social and national prejudices against the Irish worker. His attitude toward him is much the same as that of the “poor whites” to the “niggers” in the former slave states of the U.S.A.
The discovery of gold and silver in America, the extirpation, enslavement, and entombment in mines of the indigenous population of the continent, the beginnings of the conquest and plunder of India, and the conversion of Africa into a preserve for the commercial hunting of black skins are all things that characterize the dawn of the era of capitalist production.
In fact, the veiled slavery of the wage-laborers in Europe needed the unqualified slavery of the New World as its pedestal… Capital comes dripping from head to toe, from every pore, with blood and dirt.
Via.
March 23, 2008 at 6:27 pm
I can basically guarantee it. Still, I think your analogy is wrong (he says as he wanders further off-base). Marx says value is c + v + s, where s is identified with (unpaid, stolen) labor. Capitalists would, I agree, use a similar formula to describe their business process, except that none of the terms mean the same things. c and v are vulgar ‘costs’, not abstractions, and s is profit gained due to, uh, marginal utility or supply and demand or whatever (I’m so over my head here it’s not funny), not
moneyabstract value stolen from employees. These are fundamentally not the same ideas, as one inexorably predicts the inevitable impoverishment of the workers and subsequent world revolution, and the other pays everyone’s checks in the 21st century.Anyway, thanks for humoring me. Any sense I’m making here should be considered at least 50% unintentional.
No, I think it’s very fair. He was, as you say, very racist in correspondance - not un-PC like Archie Bunker, but like a good 19th century social Darwinist, and he most certainly believed every word of it. His views on colonialism could be called ‘nuanced‘ if you were an extremely generous mood, but you’ll note that he enemy in your quote is, again, Capital, doing its inexorable destructive thing again, and slavery proper is bad only different in degree than working for the Man. Now, I have to go fucking work for the fucking Man tomorrow, so I’ve got a certain sympathy for the idea, but it’s still a bit silly.
Anyway, duelling quotes:
Again, not an unusual thing for a ’scientifically’-minded and hurtfully scorned 19th century intellectual to say, but a bit deeper than the odd insensitive remark.
March 24, 2008 at 6:17 am
I agree with all your criticisms. Marx was trying to *save* the classical labor theory of value from itself. Whether he totally succeeded is another question. Are there ways to define the labor power, or else the value added in some responsible maybe even ’scientific’ way? You’d have to talk to a PhD econometrics person. Maybe there are.
Are the actual prices of things in this sense determinable, i.e. if you ran a simulation do you get the whole set of prices and outputs for a bunch of commodities with the set-ep parameters of a given real economy realistically? Maybe someone has done so by now, but I haven’t heard of it.
Harder than climate models, I would think. Much harder.
In order to even get started with a consistent ‘relative price level’ system, I would think you’d have to complile a list of equivalent goods/services and use that as your ‘bootstrap’. My suggestion: the price of an hour’s worth of services from the ‘average upscale prostitute’ in any economy is 1 ‘harlot’. All goods and services in the economy are to be normalized to ‘harlots’. So, 5 grams of gold = 1 harlot, say, or a bushel of apples is approximately 0.5 harlots, and so on.
March 24, 2008 at 10:45 am
You’d have to talk to a PhD econometrics person.
One would think so. Fortunately such people someimtes write their thoughts down in books and articles, so it turns out not be necessary to literally talk to them after all.
(You could start with the discussion of the LTV in David Harvey’s The Limits of Capital, if you like. It’s pretty accessible.)