Jeffery Record on the mythical history of Allied appeasement (.pdf):
No historical event has exerted more influence on post-World War II U.S. use-of-force decisions than the Anglo-French appeasement of Nazi Germany that led to the outbreak of the Second World War. Presidents have repeatedly cited the great lesson of the 1930s—namely, that force should be used early and decisively against rising security threats—to justify decisions for war and military intervention; some presidents have compared enemy leaders to Hitler. The underlying assumption of the so-called Munich analogy is that the democracies could and should have stopped Hitler (thereby avoiding World War II and the Holocaust) by moving against him militarily before 1939. This assumption, however, is easy to make only in hindsight and ignores the political, military, economic, and psychological contexts of Anglo-French security choices during the 1930s. Among the myriad factors constraining those choices were memories of the horrors of World War I, failure to grasp the nature of the Nazi regime and Hitler’s strategic ambitions, France’s military inflexibility, Britain’s strategic overstretch, France’s strategic dependence on Britain, guilt over the Versailles Treaty of 1919, dread of strategic bombing and misjudgment of the Nazi air threat, American isolationism, and distrust of the Soviet Union and fear of Communism.
There’s a tradition on the internets, derived from “Godwin’s Law“, that anyone who brings up Hitler/Nazis/WWII in a debate automatically loses. This tradition is, like everything else on the internets, pretty stupid – you can’t improve the quality of discourse by pretending the seminal event of the last 100 years didn’t really happen. But it does acknowledge a problem: that, as the seminal event of the last 100 years, it tends to crowd out other events, which are likely more useful for analyzing current events. WWII is important because it is exceptional – Hitler was exceptionally evil, Germany was exceptionally warlike, the Holocaust was exceptionally barbaric; most things in this life, by definition, are not the exceptions. Many things are qualitatively similar to exceptional things – Saddam is like Hitler, North Korea is warlike, being catty on the internets is like the Holocaust – but, quantitatively, do not measure up. For a Godwin’s Law-violating example of this, see above – viewing events of 1938 too much through what was then the seminal event of the century, most European leaders failed to understand the un-Great War nature of their situation. If they had, WWII might not have been the seminal event it became, and we’d all be making lousy analogies to something else entirely. History is largely accident.
Maybe that’s a bad lesson to draw from WWII – it ties up the paragraph nice, at least, so give me a break. And it’s not as bad as the usual lesson, generally offered up by wind-up right-wing idiots, that “appeasement never works.” Appeasement often works quite well, even when dealing with our present-day Hitlers manqués – look at North Korea. Endless index card-reading wingnut rants notwithstanding, even rather awful people can often be satisfied if they are given what (note: not “whatever”) they want, will often be willing to make concessions in order to get it, and doing business is often much cheaper than acting tough, which is why grown-ups prefer it. WWII, as the exception, proves the rule.
May 19, 2008 at 7:38 am
While we’re on the topic of “appeasement,” could someone remind me of who the fuck voted for the Iraq Invasion Resolution and the Kyl-Lieberman Bill? ‘Cause appeasing Dick Cheney has had some pretty goddamned shitty consequences.
May 19, 2008 at 9:02 am
Shaka, when the walls fell.
May 19, 2008 at 11:41 am
Meta On-Topic:
Will The Editors someday restore the old archives of The Poor Man Institute, so that we may one day be able to sing “Enormous, mendacious, disembodied anus” without futzing around archive.org in order to find the lyrics?
May 19, 2008 at 2:18 pm
Yes, appeasement was a legitimate diplomatic tool until then. It also helps to know that deciding not to invade a defenseless country is not appeasement.
May 19, 2008 at 3:11 pm
Anybody remember “crazed Libyan madman Moammar Qaddafi”??? At least that’s what they used to call him in the Reagan years.
Where is he now? Appeased?
May 19, 2008 at 4:54 pm
Hey, you know who got appeased?
Osama bin Laden.
Bush pulled all the US troops out of Saudi Arabia within months of 9/11, just like Osama wanted. Then, Bush started a war of choice against a country that had nothing to do with 9/11, right in the heart of the Arab world…Osama was ecstatic. It was a jihad recruitment officer’s dream come true. And then, Bush decided he didn’t really care if Osama got away, and stopped looking for him.
If we want to talk about appeasement, the only one who’s pretty much gotten everything he could have asked for and more, the one who has benefitted above all others, is Osama bin Laden.
May 19, 2008 at 7:21 pm
I hope that, in this context, FTW represents “For The Win,” although the biker slang usage also makes sense.
May 19, 2008 at 7:24 pm
Bush pulled all the US troops out of Saudi Arabia within months of 9/11, just like Osama wanted
What is less well known is that bin Laden also insisted on religious education in schools, a constitutional amendment to ban gay marriages, the President to make regular visits to the holy land to hold hands and grovel – and a giant wall on the border to keep all the Americans in.
Oh, and oil at, say $130 per barrel, to help a little with the finances.
May 20, 2008 at 3:00 am
You need to turn over the names and the ISP addresses of all your regulars to the DHS. This is an order from the tri-lobed Brain in chartruse robe, (we’re no longer calling it a red dress), and Louis XVI..ehm..high heels..ehm…raised royal sandal…ehm..executive lifter shoes.
This is an order!
May 20, 2008 at 6:12 am
Hmm, bit surprised to see that you supported the Iraq war; but then plenty of people got suckered into that I guess. One thing which I think tends to get washed over now is that we overestimate the degree to which appeasement was dominant in policy. Britain for example started its rearmament programme in 1936 and by Munich I don’t think strategic planners expected peace in Europe to last more than a decade at the max – the only confusion was who exactly would be fighting whom. For many, Soviet Communism was a much bigger threat than the Nazis and so what may have looked like appeasement was more in the line of looking at the real enemy (not at that time commonly held to be Nazism). For all the talk about Munich being a betrayal; even Chamberlain knew that German ambitions would not stop there and conflict was inevitable; the acceleration of rearmament and preparation for the air-war shows this. By this stage I think the Allies were quite aware that a showdown was coming. The problem was that Britain and France in 1936 weren’t the same powers that they were in 1914 – they had gone from being creditor countries to being debtor countries, had borrowed massively from the US and had experienced savage deflations that had wrecked their economies in the 1920s and were starting to experience the resistance in the colonies that would make them unviable. While there certainly was an appeasement lobby I think we overestimate their influence when looking at the real room for manoeuvre that the French and the Brits had – without American backing these powers would not be able do much by themselves.
The one power that did overestimate the importance of appeasement was Germany; the Nazis were surprised by the Allied decision to got to war over Poland. Most of the recent research on German war economy indicates that a lot of the strategic capacity such as the naval programme, building up domestic stocks of oil and ability to manufacture synthetic raw materials that would become unavailable once hostilities broke out were several years away from completion. The Nazis simply didn’t plan for total war and only managed to orient production along these lines in 1942 – by which stage most planners realised it was already too late. This was disguised in the early stages of the war by the rapid collapse of most Allied states, the actual low costs of blitzkrieg warfare and of course not having to fight Russia. Once these advantages were removed, only one long run conclusion was possible. In retrospect, one might argue that the misjudgement of the Nazi regime that falsely relied on an illusionary appeasement policy encouraged it to initiate hostilities prematurely and prevented it from having a real commanding position in the war
May 20, 2008 at 7:18 am
Britain for example started its rearmament programme in 1936 and by Munich I don’t think strategic planners expected peace in Europe to last more than a decade at the max – the only confusion was who exactly would be fighting whom. For many, Soviet Communism was a much bigger threat than the Nazis
Absolutely. Even after the outbreak of war, it was still unclear who would be fighting whom. Don’t forget that at that point the Soviets and the Nazis were allies, and had split Poland between them. Britain almost went to war with the USSR in defence of Finland in winter 1939.
For a lot of people in Britain, Barbarossa removed the moral purpose to the war – suddenly it wasn’t a question of Democracy v. Horrible Dictatorships, but One Horrible Dictatorship v. Another One and Us. Of course, for others, Barbarossa supplied the war’s moral purpose; the Second Anti-Imperialist War became the Great Patriotic War, and the CPGB line shifted from go-slow in the munitions factories and “Peace Now” to “Support Uncle Joe!”
Also, it’s easy for non-Europeans to underestimate the impact of the Great War on Europe. To take one country as an example: of twenty million British people, almost a million died in the War, and another three million were injured. And, of course, the casualties (unlike those of the Second World War or the Spanish flu pandemic) were overwhelmingly concentrated in one age group – men between (roughly) 17 and 30.
“By the end of the war,” JRR Tolkien wrote, “all but one of my close friends were dead.” Imagine some armed maniac walking into your school one day, lining up all the pupils, and shooting them all, one by one. Depending on luck, some would die, some would survive; in roughly the same proportions that the schoolmates of a Great War soldier would have survived or died.
May 20, 2008 at 8:44 am
Geez, who let the historians in here? It’s gonna take forever to get the place dumbed back down….
May 20, 2008 at 12:29 pm
Usually my comments serve as a sort of stupid prophylactic.
May 20, 2008 at 2:08 pm
Geez, who let the historians in here? It’s gonna take forever to get the place dumbed back down….
As an historian who just posted a comment about an enormous, mendacious, disembodied anus I feel that I’ve done my part.
May 20, 2008 at 2:47 pm
Those are some profound and serious insights,now how about some laughs,Please.
May 20, 2008 at 5:18 pm
This is an order from the tri-lobed Brain in chartruse robe
The tri-lobed brain needs to check its colour vision (or its lexicon).
May 20, 2008 at 6:04 pm
France occupied the Rhineland until 1930. They planned to stay till 1935 but they pulled out five years early because the occupation was a huge financial drain. The Germans enjoyed being occupied so much they arrested and sterilized 400 children fathered by French soliders. The end result of the occupation is that no one wanted to repeat it when Hitler came to power. It was the occupation that cried wolf.
Of course, no one who whines about appeasment ever seems to be aware this occupation ever occured. Probably because actually learning history is harder than simply whining.
May 20, 2008 at 7:05 pm
da bomb!
May 21, 2008 at 6:58 am
“Hmm, bit surprised to see that you supported the Iraq war; but then plenty of people got suckered into that I guess. ”
Wait, who supported the war, now?
May 21, 2008 at 6:59 am
And may I point out that my picture is not a strange little creature but a nice aqua yin yang. Ha!
May 21, 2008 at 7:27 am
I have nothing to contribute to this thread (except to reiterate my prior, false belief that “ftw” stand for “fuck the world”.) I’m commenting just to see what kind of critter I get for my picture.
May 21, 2008 at 7:28 am
I like, I like….
May 21, 2008 at 7:44 am
To expand on the point in post 10 above, a very well respected British military historian (Liddel Hart, IIRC, who was admittedly trying to be iconoloclastic) argued that the British appeasement policy was exactly the correct one, since the British were not ready for war in 1938, and trading non-essential interests for time was right. Their real mistake was in going to war over Poland, rather than staying out of the way and letting Germany and the USSR fight it out.
OT, but he also argued that, for all the grief it’s gotten, the Maginot line was also the best possible strategic approach for France as well. They were facing a superior foe and had a shortage of manpower, so they needed to use fortifications in order to maximize the defensive capability of the troops they did have. But fortifying the entire western border would have left them without any strategic reserve force to respond, so their best bet was to fortify most of the border, which is what they did.
May 21, 2008 at 10:23 am
What critter does this lurker get ?
May 21, 2008 at 6:49 pm
In addition to posting to see what my critteur du gravitaur is, I would like to second the herr doktor and say that the tri-lobed brain’s robe is, perhaps, vermilion.
May 22, 2008 at 9:37 pm
need i say what mythical species of gravatar i’m hoping to get?
May 22, 2008 at 9:40 pm
and need i also say that a greenish, fecal-looking thing with a mask (a turd burglar??) is most definitely *not* it?
May 29, 2008 at 3:04 am
[...] levels, as well. Brian at Incertus explains some of the problems with the Chamberlain analogy, the Poor Man Institute explores the problems with WWII analogies in general, author Lynne Olson explains how Bush is much [...]
June 5, 2008 at 10:37 am
[...] how we need to keep doing something because that’s how we’ve always done it, much like analogizing everything to WWII, is not a sign that you are a deep strategic thinker, it’s a sign that you are a one-note [...]