- Phil Carter misunderstands objections to telecom immunity. The point of lawsuits against the telecommunications industry is not to punish them for the misdeeds of the government, it is to compel them to testify against the government, something which they are not otherwise going to be especially eager to do.
- Legal analysis outsourced to Marty Lederman and David Kris, here, here, here, and here.
- Barack Obama’s current stand on the bill is: he supports it, with the immunity provision removed. The word ‘filibuster’ does not appear in his statement, nor in the statements of any of the core anti-immunity bloc. However, Obama had previously vowed to filibuster any bill with such a provision. Unless he’s going to flip-flop on that promise, then, this bill as written will have to go through the filibuster of the Democratic nominee. I’m just telling you what he’s been telling me.
- I’m not sure what Michael Cohen is going on about here:
Seriously, Greenwald and others need to get a grip. You want to disagree with those Democrats who supported this bill, fine – I’m not here to tell you that you’re wrong. But to suggest that progressives should then raise money to lessen the Democratic majority in Congress and subsequently ignore the fact that the only reason we are even having this debate is because of the lawless practices of George Bush; well if you think this is a good idea, you need to have your head examined.
Tell Grover Norquist how this doesn’t work. Tell the Service Employees International Union. Greenwald et al are targeting 3 House Democrats – Steny Hoyer, who has spearheaded this and all previous attempts to get a Republican-friendly FISA bill through the House (and who also happens to suck generally); Chris Carney, who is sort of a mini-Steny (and who is, ironically enough, being heavily funded by the SEIU); and John Barrow, who is facing a serious primary challenge. Hoyer’s not going to lose ever, so this is mostly posturing; Carney might lose to a Republican; and Barrow might lose in solidly Democratic district to a much more solid Democrat. You could argue about the specifics here – my money is going to primary challenges exclusively – but, in a year where the Democrats seem certain to pick up 10-20 House seats, it seems like the perfect time to cut some dead weight. Comparing this to Ralph Nader’s continuing work on behalf of Republicans, as Cohen does, is ridiculous.
That’s tactics. People who, like Cohen, object to this on grounds of partisan solidarity need to consider that party loyalty flows both ways. Forget pissing on the grassroots voting hoi polloi: this “compromise” FISA bill, like the earlier (and even more objectionable) Protect America Act, passed the House with essentially unanimous Republican support and over the objections of most House Democrats. Believe it or don’t believe it, the vote breakdowns don’t lie. The House Democratic leadership has repeatedly allowed votes on bills which are opposed by a substantial majority of their caucus, and are hugely popular with the same people who are otherwise trying to ensure that your party’s agenda fails. If you want to avoid primary challenges and other reprisals, don’t undercut your own party.
- I know I sound like a broken record, but it would be nice if someone would at least acknowledge that the Cold War is over, the Soviet Union is kaput, and so the whole national security justification for secret FISA courts and NSA wiretaps actually no longer exists. I’m open to arguments that current technologies, etc., means that the government needs expanded surveillance powers – it’s not my preference, but I don’t think I’m qualified to propose policy here. But it would be so nice if someone could relate it to the real world of the present day, rather than trying to make me believe that bearded religious nutters living in caves are more cunning and sophisticated than the Soviet Union. (Yes, the 9/11 hijackers did manage to escape the detection of the Bush administration. So did a class 5 hurricane.)
- Has anybody done a comparison between US gov’t surveillance powers and those of other governments, especially Western Europe? It would provide some context for the non-immunity parts of the bill.
- Tim Russert: still dead. We’ll keep you posted as this story develops.
June 23, 2008
June 23, 2008 at 2:27 pm
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/homesec.jpg
June 23, 2008 at 2:51 pm
Has anybody done a comparison between US gov’t surveillance powers and those of other governments, especially Western Europe? It would provide some context for the non-immunity parts of the bill.
I was under the vague impression that France and the UK permit a good deal of government surveillance and are generally not as committed to rights to privacy as the US
generally isused to be.I could be wrong about this. It’s Monday and I’m still clinging to my post weekend brain damage.
June 23, 2008 at 3:21 pm
Where’s The Dodd?
June 23, 2008 at 4:55 pm
Obama had previously vowed to filibuster any bill with such a provision. Unless he’s going to flip-flop on that promise
He is. And there will be no effort by any other Senator, including Dodd, to filibuster.
Today Majority Leader Reid filed a cloture motion signed by 16 Democrats and Joe Lieberman. 17+49 Republicans is well over the 60 required to limit debate.
There will be a cloture vote on Wednesday. If there is to be an amendment offered to strip the telecom immunity provisions from the bill, Senators must hear from you now.
Even those of you who applaud Sen. Obama’s pragmatism in supporting this vile piece of legislation will want him to have the political cover of voting against telecom immunity before he votes for the whole thing. So call and fax Reid, and call and fax your own Senators.
Details here. Many thanks are owed to commenter cboldt in that thread, who watched C-SPAN today so that you didn’t have to.
June 23, 2008 at 5:41 pm
You know, considering Nell’s evidence and the fact that the HofR brought this legislation up when they didn’t have to, I can only guess that the power Dems are on board with this, which leads me to believe they are knee-deep in the whole deception. They don’t want depositions because they are culpable. If Bush goes down, the Dems know they go down.
June 23, 2008 at 7:35 pm
The Dodd, he is dodd to me now.
June 23, 2008 at 7:52 pm
…
June 23, 2008 at 8:06 pm
I think the US has stronger privacy protection than most European countries. For one thing you US residents are more protected from the NSA than I am (I live in Italy). They have a listening station here. As far as I know, the Italian government doesn’t restrict them at all (only admitted that the giant antennas are a listening station about 10 years ago).
For the UK
Glenn Greewald quotes John Major
http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2008/06/13/conservatism/index.html
“So is a society in which the right to personal privacy is downgraded. These days a police superintendent can authorise bugging in public places. A chief constable can authorise bugging our homes or cars.
The Home Secretary can approve telephone tapping and the interception of our letters and e-mails. All of this is legal under an Act passed by the Labour Government. None of this requires — as it should — the sanction of a High Court Judge. . .”
That makes the anti-FISA just passed by Congress seem like nothing.
June 23, 2008 at 9:37 pm
Dodd was kneecapped once it became known he had a “VIP mortgage.” Gosh, I wonder how they found out.
June 24, 2008 at 12:43 am
It might be worth people’s time to try to hold Obama’s feet to the fire on this one.
June 24, 2008 at 6:45 am
Has anybody done a comparison between US gov’t surveillance powers and those of other governments, especially Western Europe? It would provide some context for the non-immunity parts of the bill.”
Via Scott Horton, it isn’t pretty. Try Greece.
June 24, 2008 at 9:29 am
and Barrow might lose in solidly Democratic district to a much more solid Democrat.
How is a district that Barrow won by fewer than 1000 votes last time a “solidly Democratic district?”
Regina Thomas, Barrow’s liberal, African-American challenger, is almost certain to lose in the general election in a majority white district in Georgia. Only one African American has ever been elected in a majority white district in the South. That one, Georgia’s Sanford Bishop, was an incumbent (his district had been redrawn from majority Black to majority white), and is quite conservative – he’s a Blue Dog and voted for this bill.
I’m not sure why Greenwald, et al, are trying to mislead people into thinking Georgia-12 is a safe Democratic district. It’s not, even for Barrow, and certainly not for Thomas.
June 24, 2008 at 9:42 am
It’s D+2, 45% black, and everything in 2008 is trending D. Democrats should be able to win this.
June 24, 2008 at 10:42 am
It’s D+2, 45% black, and everything in 2008 is trending D. Democrats should be able to win this.
Maybe. But again, Barrow won by a tiny margin last time, and whites in the south won’t vote for Black candidates. Thomas would have a chance, given that it’s 45% Black, but there would be a very high risk of losing the seat.
It’s certainly not a solidly Democratic seat.
June 24, 2008 at 10:46 am
I guess it depends on your definition of “solid”. It’s in a district Democrats should win, in a year when evrything is going their way. I’m calling that “solid”. If you want to suggest a different word that you think conveys the same idea better, I’ll use it, but I don’t personally see the problem.
June 24, 2008 at 2:34 pm
Everything was going the Dems’ way in 2006, and they barely won the seat with a fairly conservative candidate. I suppose the lack of any genuinely competitive statewide races and Barrow’s conservatism may have made for poor turnout from African Americans, and that this may not be a problem this year, but this seems like a district where the PVI is misleading.
It is, at best, a marginally Democratic district. Voting is incredibly racially polarized in districts like this, and that becomes worse with a Black candidate. Maybe Obamathusiasm will increase turnout sufficiently that the more liberal black Democrat can win. I don’t at all see how that’s the presumed outcome. Given the results last time, I’d say the presumed outcome of putting up a liberal Black candidate is to give the seat to the GOP, assuming they can field a halfway decent candidate.
June 24, 2008 at 3:32 pm
[...] wonderful. h/t Zed. Possibly related posts: (automatically generated)Threat Level – Wired BlogsGovernment should do [...]
June 25, 2008 at 9:22 am
Repeal FISA is up and running. Anyone who wants to is welcome to sign up and become a blogger on it. The purpose of the blog is to organize a drive to repeal the FISA laws and all laws that pardon or give immunity from prosecution anyone who has violated the Constitution during the Bush Administration.
That is why we want everyone to be able to Post so they can start a conversation about an idea they have to make this happen.
Stop on by and check it out. By all means leave a comment and sign up to blog with us as we figure out what needs to be done to return our Fourth Amendment Rights and our rule of law.
If you have a blog already and you become a poster we will link to your site.
http://repealfisa.wordpress.com/