Things which aren’t clear to me:
1. That Russia has, as of press time, done anything worth objecting to. From a Russian POV, this is perfectly valid interpretation of events: Georgia made a military move against disputed territories where Russia believed it had interests, Russia repelled Georgia, Russia is now (to some undetermined extent) exacting a price from Georgia for doing so. Assuming Russia doesn’t now annex Georgia or something like that, this is a pretty typical pattern which conflicts take, and while war is bad, etc, I haven’t seen any gross violations of international norms. Most countries – to the extent they are capable – can’t go a few decades without doing the same sort of thing. Russia has done much worse in such a time frame, and so has the US, and a substantial portion of the world community, including Georgia. I’m not particularly fond of the jejune “yeah, well what about …?” change-the-subject school of argument; but in assessing how bad something is, recent history should be one’s measure, and the invasion of Iraq was clearly a much bigger and more radical violation of norms than this is. It doesn’t make everything anyone else does right, but it’s where you start if these things concern you.
Now, other things way yet happen, and other facts may yet come out, and other, less exculpatory POVs are, especially in an absence of reliable information, equally valid. However:
2. Outside of blogs, editorial pages, non-binding diplomatic responses, and other release valves for hot gas, I’m not sure any likely objection to Russian behavior amounts to anything. Nobody can force a country with 12,000 nuclear warheads to ignore what it feels are its vital interests, not even a country with 8,000 nuclear warheads. I have no doubt that there are very well-considered legal and moral arguments about how Russia has done a terrible thing, and I’m sure the World Police and International Relations Jesus will spurred into action by their eloquence and power. Similarly, I’m sure Russia doesn’t give a fuck, and Russia has the under-appreciated advantage of actually existing.
Moral and legal arguments, to the extent they are worth anything, are only to the extent they rest on a foundation of understanding how the world works, and on this foundational level – the simple playground realities of power politics – Georgia fucked up horribly. THOU SHALT NOT PICK FIGHTS THOU CAN NOT POSSIBLY WIN is a fundamental precept one needs to appreciate before any thrilling arguments about how things ought to be, because if your wrong about those noble thing you’re just wrong! wrong! wrong!; but if you’re wrong on the fundamentals you are (right!/wrong!) (x3) AND you have a huge boot jammed up your ass, which is arguably more significant, especially for your ass. I feel bad for Georgia, as – in my all-encompassing benevolence – I feel bad for losers everywhere, but I still can’t help noticing that they are among those who weren’t being very practical about their situation.
3. It’s not clear to me that having no particular Georgia/Caucasus policy, or even any formal guiding principles, is such a bad idea. Specific positions are useful in places where one’s interests are most engaged – formalized relationships and doctrines and cooperative organizations are useful in Western Europe, the Pacific Rim, and other places where stable, mature, and (especially) like-minded democracies congregate – but in places where you just aren’t that concerned, they can lead one into error, fighting to defend vaporous Principle where no concrete Interest lies. And by “error”, I am again referring to the “huge boot jammed up your ass” variety, which is the most egregious sort. “Promoting Democracy” is, like my aforementioned all-encompassing benevolence, a lovely thing of no use, and certainly not worth fighting a nuclear war over. The best argument for a concrete US interest in the Caucasus is “strategic energy reserves”, which is to say “energy reserves one would wish control in the event one goes to war to defend one’s interests in the Caucasus”, which seems a bit circular. Whatever interest the US may have there pales before the Russian interest, another fundamental consideration.
Now, lots of people are on TV declaring the importance of having firm principles on this issue, and how their positions are the firmest of all, but all these people are running for office, or have other justifications for wishing to sound bold and confident and knowledgeable, and being vague and noodley does not create this impression. OTOH, vague noodliness has definite strategic advantages, as it is very hard to pin one down and force one to abide by previous commitments (commitments one may have lived to regret) when one has taken no identifiable position and made no commitments. For fans of the graven tablet form: THOU SHALT NOT WRITE CHECKS THOU DOST NOT WANT CASHED. Or, for fans of the concrete example – think very seriously about making formal NATO promises to countries who can’t protect themselves and like to pick fights with Russia.
4. Finally, it’s not at all clear to me that Russia has “won” anything. No doubt it stokes Russian nationalism to stick it to those splitters in Georgia – as it stoked Georgian nationalism to stick it to South Ossitscalled and Abkhatotherplace – but it can, fairly or not, make you look like a bit of dick. They’ve successfully neutralized the Georgian Menace, so I’m sure they’ll sleep easier for that, and also demonstrated their ability to repel the not-really threats posed by countries with small, hand-me-down military forces. It depends on how Russia sees its place in the world, I suppose. If they are trying to get the Soviet Union back together, this would be the first step – though its not clear that things would turn out any better than they did last time. If they are trying to join the West, or at least have a cordial working relationship with it, they probably want to wind this thing down quickly.
August 13, 2008 at 7:28 pm
Concerning 4),the Russians are now the de-facto rulers of South Ossetia and Abkhazian. Now they’re not particularly large or important places, but territorial gain has always been seen as a pretty big “win” historically.
August 13, 2008 at 7:49 pm
Cheers. Good post.
August 13, 2008 at 7:50 pm
Michael Moore is fat?
August 13, 2008 at 8:04 pm
The Russians need to draw this to a close. The S.Oss need a referendum on independence, Russian State-hood, or Georgian semi-autonomy.
Other new NATO nations are less then excited, maybe they should get together and form some sort of mutual defense pact to prevent Russians from killing their civilians. We can call this a treaty.
Meanwhile, Alberta totally wants to part of the USA, so does Baja. Actually anything with minerals, oil, or oceanside real estate needs to be liberated and incorporated. No statehood for our liberated brothers…just terrritory status. You know, rape. Taxation without representation is just good business.
August 13, 2008 at 8:14 pm
Georgia’s President Saakashvili called out McCain by name and said ‘thanks for the sympathy card, but where are your fucking tanks?’
I would very much like to know what McCain advisor and Georgia lobbyist Randy Scheunemann has been whispering into his cellphone the past few weeks.
August 13, 2008 at 8:17 pm
The first thing that comes to mind for me was back in the 20th century, when countries did indeed invade other countries. In 1983, over the vehement objections of the UK and a vast majority of voting UN members (the vote being 122 to 9), a large and militarily powerful country invaded and overwhelmed a small neighboring nation.
It based its rationale for doing so as protecting a small number of it’s citizens who happened to be attending school there, as well as expressing that an airstrip being built there was too long, and could be used militarily.
The larger country invaded with an overwhelming military force, effected regime change, and destroyed the airstrip, which it then rebuilt to virtually the same length. Some suggested the exact timing of the invasion was to distract from the Beirut Marine barracks bombing, two days earlier.
The thing is, IOKIYTUS.
August 13, 2008 at 8:20 pm
When I mean new NATO states I mean the Baltics. I agree with The Moscow Times when I say Estonia, Lithuania, and Latvia are terror-states on the verge of keeping all that beautiful submarine docking space for themselves and also they’re learning to play basketball to well.
August 13, 2008 at 8:32 pm
two things:
first of all–nice fuck up by mccain and his lobbyist minions, whispering sweet nothings into georgian president’s ear…
first lesson for all small countries around the world (or nation-wanna-bes)–ask the kurds or the east timorese or pretty much anyone anywhere what the worth of an american promise to back your play is in US dollars–the answer may surprise you!
it’s zero. that answer.
second thing–i’m sure the georgians think they are bad ass like the chechnians. they aren’t. no one is as bad as those motherfuckers and even they gave up eventually and went full time into crimelording.
but it is reminder one million that mccain’s peeps (and his friendship with people with the surname “kagan” will lead to no good end for any of us anywhere.
August 13, 2008 at 8:48 pm
OK, but you gots to admit that it was pretty fuckin stupid of Bush, Jr. to appoint April Glaspe as the Ambassador to All teh Russias, what with her track record.
August 13, 2008 at 8:52 pm
wait, april “go on ahead sadaam, what’s the worst that can happen” glasbie is our fucking ambassador? really?
August 13, 2008 at 9:09 pm
I’m hoping McSame™ keeps yakking, cuz I wants me some noo-kyoo-lar war.
Count me out–I’m votin’ fer my dog again. At least he won’t screw my Fourth Amendment rights…
August 13, 2008 at 10:02 pm
They’ve already had at least two referendums on the subject. I’d say with 95%+ turnout, and 95%+ approval for independence is good enough to get some recognition.
August 13, 2008 at 10:03 pm
Great Cthulhu:
I think you underestimate the Anti-Constitutionalist tendencies of your dog.
Vote him in, and there will be many, MANY warrentless searches for Milk Bones, probable cause be damned.
And really, I don’t think we want the neocons starting to agitate for The War Against Cats.
August 13, 2008 at 10:50 pm
That’s good to know, the fastest route would for OS to become independent and obey Russia, as the legal annexation process is too lengthy and pisses off too many people. France should broker a deal.
Russia doesn’t have the right to punish anyone, it wasn’t very long ago that the Cold War ended and the Russian economy was killing Russians, and The US helped the Russians. The Cold War is over and we didn’t tie. It’s in the US’s interests to remain Unilateral and not relapse in to a bilateral, or even multilateral world power structure. China, India, Russia will all oblige us in diluting our power. Terror is the last tactic of the powerless, and as our number one “enemy” is terrorists and not a State with ICBM’s it’s a victory.
With that said, I would hate it if Russia had all manner of pipeline accidents. Russia needs shut the fuck down and recognize that it has less of right to engage in hegemonic activities then France, Holland, and fucking Belgium too. Look at how quiet Belgium is, Russia, they have their hands folded and are in their seats. That’s all I want to hear from Russia. We might let you get rich(er) so long as you stop pretending you’re on our level. Everything is so much easier when we are allies and the U.S. is in charge. :-) Otherwise they will take our shit. In fact, they all want our shit, and they’ll take it if we let them.
Get Putin on the horn.
August 13, 2008 at 10:54 pm
The only place I want to see Russian tanks rolling is down the street to get me coffee. Damn, Ain’t life hard on a pimp?
August 13, 2008 at 10:55 pm
Free Tibet
August 13, 2008 at 11:24 pm
Criminy, I think you’re right: He does look at me with those doe-eyed “I’d so water-board you for a Meaty Bone™” eyes…
Frakkin’ rightard bastid
Mea Culpa: My doggie is a concern troll.
August 14, 2008 at 1:17 am
You know Abkhazia is next.
August 14, 2008 at 1:21 am
And the referendum cited didn’t include Georgians living in S.Oss.
August 14, 2008 at 1:34 am
Plus, ” South Ossetian separatist government receives two thirds of their annual budget from Russia” and Reuters claims that “Russia’s state-controlled gas giant Gazprom is building new gas pipelines and infrastructure” worth hundreds of millions of dollars there.”
Georgia’s only interests seem to be control of the Roki Tunnel, to maintain border integrity, and seem to want to let S.Oss operate as autonomously as they want, 70,000+ residents carry Russian passports. Perhaps they should have full autonomy, but looking at the map I see Georgia’s point, at the same time it’s moot as they just got rolled on, (where’s your border integrity now?)
Russia’s interests are not only economic, but eventually they’ll be in total control of how warm Europe will be in Winter. Call me a scary mary, but I don’t trust Putin. I’m rather pro-Georgian at this date. Color me rose.
So Bush, McCain and I all agr(barf). We all ag(barf). We agree.
http://uk.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUKL855785020080808?pageNumber=2&virtualBrandChannel=0&sp=true
August 14, 2008 at 2:09 am
I have to admit, this all reminds me of 007 and Q.
In the interest of full disclosure, I am an agent of Whoudoipronounceizzan.
So how does one esplane covert activities to bring down the Republic that gave rise to the Party of the post-real-war years. Or as we know them today, the Krazy Yars…
I’m still looking for those Lagavullin pints, I fear cheap imitations cloud my judgement……
August 14, 2008 at 2:33 am
In all honesty, I agree with The Editors. Wingnuttery extends beyond political lines… Russia has every right to defend her borders, even stabilize her borders. I’m just glad she recognizes that the Olympics are far more important to regional relations. After all, in the women’s competition in marksmanship Russia and Georgia fared quite well, they hugged for Anti-Christ’s sake! Bronze and silver irrespectively (I made that word real by typing it.)
In any case, I am right. You are wrong. Don’t worry about being empathic.
X3nophobias are hard to overcome…
August 14, 2008 at 2:39 am
Ah war, (Jon Stewart). It is quite funny. The Russians shattered the Georgian, American and Israeli equipped and trained, army in an evening. Now they are doing do-nuts on the BTC pipeline to the south of Gori while ‘guarding weapons’ there. The reason the Georgians were stroked so heavily is this very pipeline, the only non Russian one from the Caspian area, opened in 2005.
Yes the bear has a sense of humor alright. The sponsors of this debacle are not amused it seems. Condi is so scathing I’m sure the Ruskis are quaking in their boots.
August 14, 2008 at 5:08 am
Damn what is up with all the verbal diarrhea?
You used to be funny, man.
August 14, 2008 at 5:09 am
As the saying goes, “Don’t start a fight unless you know you can win.”
Seems Georgia didn’t calculate correctly what would happen when they entered SO. And that the Russians are stomping the crap out of Georgia’s military (and infrastructure, as PenGun points out) is a little kick in the ribs while they’re down.
I tend to think of it this way: A country equipped and trained by the US invades a region on the border of Russia. It doesn’t take genius to recognize the likely Russian response is going to be a total ass-kicking.
Russia is showing it’s superpower status once again. Flush with petrodollars they want to assert they still have a significant role in how this world works. And it was only icing on the cake that that competing pipeline was running thru the transgressor’s country. What better opportunity to score a trifecta: Reassert regional dominance, stomp the crap out of a US proxy, and knock some oil competition out for a while.
August 14, 2008 at 5:11 am
[...] there a single word or thought out of place in The Editors’ analysis of the Russia/Georgia war? There is not. Posted by Jim Henley @ 8:10 am, Filed under: Main « « All we are [...]
August 14, 2008 at 5:57 am
Oh you sexy beast. Never mind the bollocks, excellent post.
August 14, 2008 at 6:01 am
Is there not one hair miscombed on Ken’s mustachio? Is there not one single whisker out of place under a kitten’s sweet, cool, pink nose? It is the most careful, thoughtful, caring piece of political analysis ever pressed into any keyboard in teh history of time/space.
As we speak I am inscribing these words into the most expensive, exotic, hardwoods in the world. These magnificent fifty foot slabs of prophecy will extend over sixty football field sized whole marble slabs. In a hydroponic garden, on the moon.
Teams of scientist from throughout the world are scouring Wikipedia preparing plans for The Genesis Rocket that will propel this work of man into the heavens, a mote in God’s eye.
August 14, 2008 at 6:06 am
For the record which Archangel read this to you? It isn’t Gabriel, and Michael isn’t much of a talker…It’s got to be Uriel with his sword and his fiery flame held against the Persians. Selaphiel will be so pissed if he ever wakes up from his nap.
August 14, 2008 at 6:32 am
Thou shalt not pick fights thou can_st_ not possibly winn. You can, thou canst. What’s happened to standards around here?
August 14, 2008 at 6:46 am
Russia v Georgia?
What’s done is done.
But I fear they may also decide to mess with Alabama.
August 14, 2008 at 6:59 am
wait, april “go on ahead sadaam, what’s the worst that can happen” glasbie is our fucking ambassador? really?
That’s a joke, son.
August 14, 2008 at 7:01 am
Regarding point 3.
I would say the USA doesn’t have a firm Georgia/Caucasus policy. They have a clear policy of undermining Russia’s influence and other countries get caught in between. If the US had a clear policy regarding Georgia they would have followed through it. The statements and foot-shuffling of the past days shows they have no organisation other than antagonising the Russkies.
August 14, 2008 at 7:29 am
That’s not a policy, it’s jibba-jabba, which has absolutely no influence on Russia’s anything. It’s produced entirely for domestic consumption.
August 14, 2008 at 7:47 am
(sorry if this multiply posts):
Why can’t a late 1940s style solution to this problem be worked out?
Carve up South Ossetia — parts of it being independent/with North Ossetia/part of Russia and parts of it remaining with Georgia. Then get people to move into the country in which they would want to live.
After WWI — drawing borders of nation-states without regard to what would happen to ethnic minorities –> WWII
After WWII — we made sure to move ethnic minority enclaves into the borders of appropriate nation-states.
Of course, now if you claim that such moves should be done, you get called a lover of ethnic cleansing tantamount to being genocidal. But ya know? Sometimes people have to get (forcibly) moved. Does anybody except glibertarians hoping to score political points from the Kelo decision think that once you “buy” some property, you have the right to set there and do whatever you want on it so long as you and your heirs live?
N.B. — where those moves were accepted as nessessary for the greater good (Poland, the Sudeten Germans, Karelia), we have peace. Where those moves either did not take place (e.g. the former Yugoslavia, the Caucusus) or were not accepted as being a fact of life (e.g. Palestine, the Biharis in Bangladesh) we have war (Israel/Palestine, the Caucuses, the former Yugoslavia … until the ethnic cleansing was reasonably complete) or people are just left to succumb to natural disasters (Bihari “squatters” in Bangladesh).
Why can’t we all just get along? I dunno. But since we can’t sometimes we have to resort to “Jimmy, you go to your room; Billy, you go to your room” solutions. But who has the moral authority and military capabilities to even suggest such solutions, forget about imposing them?
Perhaps I’m gonna catch some flack (for not being a real dirty hippy but merely occassionally playing one on the intertubes) for saying this — but Bayh has somewhat of a point. One of the problems with Iraq is that it has descredited our moral authority, bogged down our military might and in general (ironically given the support of “national greatness conservatives” for this endevour) weakened our country’s ability and resolve to fight actual threats (didn’t these people ever read “the boy who cried wolf?”).
Of course, the GOP is good at taking a constructive thing (e.g. political opposition based on the Madisonian “ambition must be made to check ambition”) and descrediting it (e.g. the Clinton impeachment). It’s what they do best — FUBARing things! It’s their very ideology … as Nietzsche would point out “you call me a nihilist? the real nihilists are the fundie Christian types” … and their nominally more secular GOoPer counterparts!
August 14, 2008 at 8:22 am
Things which aren’t clear to me:
1. That Russia has, as of press time, done anything worth objecting to. From a Russian POV, this is perfectly valid interpretation of events: Georgia made a military move against disputed territories where Russia believed it had interests, Russia repelled Georgia, Russia is now (to some undetermined extent) exacting a price from Georgia for doing so
Couple of points that may be relevant.
First: South Ossetia wasn’t “disputed” in the sense that more than one nation claimed it; the rest of the world, including Russia, recognised it as part of Georgia.
Second: following on from that, Russia has indeed done something worth objecting to: by sending troops into both South Ossetia and into the rest of Georgia without the permission of the Georgian government, it has waged aggressive war against another country, which is actually the worst possible crime under international law.
It really is that simple.
August 14, 2008 at 8:28 am
Wow. Just, wow. You don’t see what Russia gets out of this? Here, I’ll show you:
http://rationalitate.blogspot.com/2008/08/bp-shuts-down-georgian-pipeline.html
Western investors are fleeing from Georgia. BP shut down the only working pipeline, and analysts say there is no chance of building any more in the near future. Russia didn’t need to bomb the pipeline to stop the flow of oil – it’s much more effective to just increase Westerners’ risk premium – that way you aren’t seen as directly destroying Georgian infrastructure, but you achieve the same goal.
And as for your assertion that Russia did nothing to respond to Georgian provocation, disabuse yourself of this notion by reading a LITTLE deeper than what you’ve seen on CNN—
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Georgia-Russia_crisis
Since the beginning of 2008, Russia has been goading Georgia into war – small attacks, shooting down UAV over South Ossetia, ramping up aid to South Ossetia and Abkhazia, etc. They very much wanted Georgia to respond with an incursion into either Abkhazia or South Ossetia so that they could claim to be the oppressed Russian citizens’ savior. But make no mistake – they didn’t do it to save the South Ossetians, they did it so that Westerners would think twice about investing in Georgia.
August 14, 2008 at 8:31 am
Sorry – I meant “did nothing BUT respond to Georgian provocation”
August 14, 2008 at 8:48 am
The Pipeline Theory of History rears its head, right on time.
August 14, 2008 at 9:00 am
Yes, those wacky conspiracy theorists, thinking that a nation whose wealth and power depends entirely on its fuel exports could possibly have any interest in pipelines. Snork snork snork.
August 14, 2008 at 9:06 am
Good points, and it is not clear to me what Russia has done which couldn’t be explained (although not necessarily justified) by the application of the Monroe Doctrine and the Powell Doctrine.
In particular, it seems ridiculously hypocritical to condemn Russia for ruining a democracy when we’ve been propping up tin-pot dictators in South America for decades.
August 14, 2008 at 9:09 am
ajay, Rat. – see paragraph 3.
There’s no doubt Russia wanted this war, but that doesn’t obligate Georgia to give it to them. The niceities of South Whateverland’s international legal standing nonwithstanding, it was (“legally”, FWIW) occupied by Russian troops who were begging Georgia to bring it on. If they have committed the worst crime under international law, then the most hardened international SWAT team will shortly sweep them up and deposit them in World Alcatraz for their most terrible crime. Or, if that’s a bunch of hot gas, they’ll suffer the penalty which essentially every other country which has violated national sovereignty (excercise: draw yourself up a 3-year list of these, bring an extra pencil. I’ll get you started: Turkey, the US, Israel, Etheopia, Columbia, Syria, …) has – having to listen to people jaw about shit which has nothing to do with the price of tea.
August 14, 2008 at 9:34 am
The Pipeline Theory of History rears its head, right on time.
What incredible ignorance and lack of intellectual curiosity on your part! Putin’s regime is entirely predicated on oil and natural gas wealth. He derives his legitimacy from the goodies he can sprinkle on his people. And crucial to this power is the power to control what oil comes out of Russia’s back yard (i.e., Central Asia), which is Russia’s primary competition (now that the North Sea oil is drying up) for delivering energy to Europe. The Caucasus are a crucial link here – in them is the power to bypass Russia (Iran is the only other country with the power to do that, and geopolitical concerns ensure that the West will never rely on them). Of the Caucasian countries, Armenia is already in bed with Russia and will not allow a Western pipeline (look at maps of the Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan pipeline – note that it is routed around Armenia). All that’s left is to subjugate either Azerbaijan or Georgia, and voilà, objective achieved. They’ve been exploiting Azerbaijan’s own frozen conflict (Nagorno-Karabakh) to instigate conflict between Armenia and Azerbaijan, and now they’re trying their hand at exploiting the South Ossetia and Abkhazia conflicts.
By the way, the attitude with which you write “South Whateverland” belies your unwillingness to actually research this issue before you pontificate on it. If you can’t even be bothered to remember what the place is called, what makes us think that you have any of the necessary knowledge to accurately evaluate the situation?
August 14, 2008 at 9:38 am
it seems ridiculously hypocritical to condemn Russia for ruining a democracy when we’ve been propping up tin-pot dictators in South America for decades
Who’s “we,” white man? I refuse to be told that I’m not allowed to criticize the Russian government simply because I was born in the United States. If my name were “George W. Bush” you might have a point. But unfortunately for you, I am an independent human being who had absolutely nothing to do with American foreign policy, either now or at any point in the past.
August 14, 2008 at 9:41 am
If your plural selves doubt I “have any of the necessary knowledge to accurately evaluate the situation”, why are you all here?
(That’s “politics”, that is.)
August 14, 2008 at 9:51 am
You’ll have to share your secret for never paying taxes. I have a philosophical interest.
August 14, 2008 at 9:57 am
…but Bayh has somewhat of a point. One of the problems with Iraq is that it has descredited our moral authority, bogged down our military might and in general (ironically given the support of “national greatness conservatives” for this endevour) weakened our country’s ability and resolve to fight actual threats (didn’t these people ever read “the boy who cried wolf?”).
Agree with the larger point, but that wasn’t made by Bayh until about a month ago. He was one of the main Democratic supporters of the catastrophic snipe hunt in Iraq when he was saying ALL THE SAME FUCKING THINGS about Iraq that he’s now pissing about with Iran. It goes to credibility see.
So, in the sense that he’s right that we’ve been diminished, he’s not saying anything remotely new that many of us have been saying for the past 6 years. And that he now wants us to piss our pants over Iran because THIS TIME IT’S FOR REALS!!!11! Well, it seems a bit forced.
August 14, 2008 at 9:58 am
Are you seriously suggesting that people who pay taxes – even those who dedicate their lives to fighting against the causes that their tax dollars subsidize – should be held to such a high degree of responsibility that they ought to be labeled “hypocrites” for opposing actions that the Russian government takes which have vague corollaries to actions that the US government undertakes?
You seem to just want to argue with me, because what you’re saying violates two principles that you laid out in your original post. The first being that you’re not a big fan of the “yeah, well what about …?” line of reasoning. The second being that you’re against picking fights that you can’t win. I believe evading the American tax code is definitely one of those fights.
August 14, 2008 at 9:59 am
The question really is: “Who’s just like Chamberlain today?”
The answer: You, realpolitikkk appeaser!
August 14, 2008 at 10:07 am
95% of Earth’s population ignores the American tax code with no repercussions. It’s actually quite easy.
Also, not to be all Mr. Know-It-All here, but you should probably realize that you are arguing with at least two different people. (You can tell because we have different names and different little pictures in the corner.) You’re making a number of sloppy mistakes here, but let’s start with the easy ones, such as figuring out how many people you are talking to. Then you can go back to explaining how to solve the human condition.
August 14, 2008 at 10:08 am
42: I don’t think you understood what I wrote the first time.
August 14, 2008 at 10:11 am
51: My sentiments exactly.
August 14, 2008 at 10:28 am
(You can tell because we have different names and different little pictures in the corner.)
…? What the hell are you talking about? The only time I responded to anyone other than you is when I responded to Bill in Chicago. You then responded to my response to him, essentially taking the same position as him – that since I’m a citizen/taxpayer (though, FYI, I’m actually not a taxpayer), I am a hypocrite for criticizing anyone who makes the same blunders as the US. From then on, I assumed you held the same view as him, and used your own words above to question how you can take such a position. Where did I confuse you two…?
But seriously…is this really something worth arguing over? You seem very eager to move away from the topic at hand – whether or not Russian energy interests are the overriding concern in the Georgian-Russian conflict of 2008 – and move onto topics that are completely unrelated. At least when I criticized your “sloppy mistakes” it was a) actually a sloppy mistake, and b) RELATED TO THE TOPIC AT HAND (namely, your inability to remember the name of the region you’re analyzing).
August 14, 2008 at 10:35 am
You seem very eager to move away from the topic at hand [...] and move onto topics that are completely unrelated.
I don’t think, in context, this could be any funnier. “Excuse me, I decided we were discussing a post at my blog here on your vastly more popular blog, and I insist that we get back to it.”
August 14, 2008 at 10:49 am
Um, no. Half-point deduction.
As a bit of friendly advice, from someone who has been mistaken on the internet more than once, the thing to do in these situations is to admit error, and move on. Resist the temptation to manufacture a gotcha, and especially resist the urge to deploy ALL CAPS in such ventures.
Oh, hell.
“I see,” said the blind man.
August 14, 2008 at 10:52 am
Actually, I believe that the topics WERE being discussed in his original post. Hence me using language like “You don’t see what Russia gets out of this? ” and “as for your assertion that Russia did nothing [but] respond to Georgian provocation.” But if you need me to spell it out for you, I will:
1. Russia doesn’t have much to gain by attacking South Ossetia. (My response: wrong, they were trying to scare away Western investors…and it worked.)
2. Russia hasn’t done anything wrong. (My response: wrong, they’ve been trying to provoke a war with Georgia since long before anybody cared about this conflict – i.e., last week.)
So, again, can you please explain how I was introducing a subject that was not otherwise being discussed? If these aren’t the topics at hand, what are?
August 14, 2008 at 10:55 am
So, again, can you please explain
Again? You really can’t tell you’re talking to multiple people, can you?
Anyhow, to answer your question: no.
August 14, 2008 at 10:57 am
It’s like arguing with an Escher drawing.
August 14, 2008 at 11:04 am
We’ve been trying to provoke a war with Iran for years by sending covert troops across their borders. Iran would be stupid to openly retaliate, and no one would blame to U.S. for bombing them if they provided a pretext.
In the same way, Georgia fucked up by giving Russia an invitation.
August 14, 2008 at 11:08 am
Excuse me, but we are currently arguing about what we’re arguing about and whether we should be arguing about it. Please try to stay on-topic.
August 14, 2008 at 11:58 am
What was the topic again?
Ah yes, as I was saying about my unhappy childhood …
August 14, 2008 at 12:19 pm
This post is made of weapons-grade awesome. That is all.
August 14, 2008 at 2:18 pm
all fun ‘n games, till someone breaks a nail.
August 14, 2008 at 3:07 pm
“second thing–i’m sure the georgians think they are bad ass like the chechnians. they aren’t. no one is as bad as those motherfuckers and even they gave up eventually and went full time into crimelording.”
Question: Chechnians were primarily responsible for the Russian theater massacre in 2002 and Beslan school massacre in 2004, permanently and effectively burning whatever civilian support they had. Did the remaining rebels give up after that or were they beaten militarily or both?
Fyi, Michael Ware is now reporting from Georgia.
August 14, 2008 at 3:56 pm
Besides the “pipeline” theory and the “Georgia tugged on Superman’s cape” theory, let me add this. Russia has been very po’ed by NATO expansion into what they consider their traditional sphere of influence (kind of like if Mexico and Canada were to sign defense treaties with Russia, how would we feel). They’ve been itching for an opportunity to show their neighbors a) NATO may not be such a good choice of ally, when push comes to shove; and b) Russia still is a world power with a world-class military. I’d say mission accomplished.
August 14, 2008 at 3:56 pm
Question: Chechnians were primarily responsible for the Russian theater massacre in 2002 and Beslan school massacre in 2004, permanently and effectively burning whatever civilian support they had. Did the remaining rebels give up after that or were they beaten militarily or both?
Chechen terrorists? More Russian propaganda. If you can possibly believe that things like the 1999 apartment bombings (the “Chechen” terrorists’ biggest and most momentous operation) were committed by Chechens, you’ve gotta be crazy. Alexander Litvinenko – along with a lot of other dead former Russian officials – died to bring you that news, but it seems nobody listened. And let’s not forget his other accusation that the Russians organized the Moscow theater hostage crisis. So, we have two of the three major Chechen operations, apparently actually committed by the FSB. And it makes you wonder even more that Shamil Basayev, Chechen terrorist extraordinaire, actually took responsibility for something that Litvinenko said the Russians did. It’s just pathetic that this very public information is regarded by almost no one in the West. Except, ironically, ignoramus John McCain – just about the one thing he’s ever gotten right.
August 14, 2008 at 4:25 pm
Where in the structure of Liberal Fascism analogies do proof-readers and petty grammar correctors belong?
[nods discreetly at the phrase "if your wrong about those noble thing you’re just wrong"].
August 14, 2008 at 7:30 pm
Meanwhile, deep beneath the ocean, in the city of R’yleh, a dreaming Cthulhu smiles…
August 14, 2008 at 7:32 pm
Dear The Editors, you still haven’t addressed why Obama wanted to foment WW3 in Georgia. Again, the evidence:
http://larouchepac.com/news/2008/08/09/larouche-denounces-obamas-godfather-george-soros.html
That is so awesome…
August 14, 2008 at 9:05 pm
This isn’t The Argument Clinic, this is abuse.
Of course it’s the fucking pipeline. If they had a highly profitable raspberry farm I’d check that out too. Now, I don ‘t prescribe to the the “pipeline theory.” That’ll wreck your throat, always use a vaporizer theory, (that was neat.) I’m just saying unless there was a sassy lady involved, it was the economic interests.
Marxism examines the relationship between economics and politics. You should check it out.
All, y’all, (not you.) What?
August 15, 2008 at 12:33 am
To be fair to April Glaspie, the letter from Bush, a few days after her conversation with Saddam Hussein, probably had more to do with invasion of Kuwait than anything she said.
August 15, 2008 at 3:40 am
re: 66 — Wow. Up until there, Rationalitate had just seemed kind of loudly confused.. with a separate, though reasonable, opinion of the causes of the Five Day War…
But all of a sudden he breaks out the Big Guns-o-crazy.
Jolly bad show, chum.
August 15, 2008 at 7:08 am
Nice to see a new generation of Soviet apologists (Poland ’39, Finland ’40, Hungary ’56, Czecho ’68) taking up the baton from their predecessors.
“Silly ol’ Nagy/Dubcek/Shaakashvili, provoking the Russians like that. Mess with the Bear, get the Claws.”
August 15, 2008 at 7:20 am
You ever read the Civil Wars in France? Or the 18th Brumaire? (I mean, besides the two sentences everyone quotes.) Or any of the journalistic stuff he did for the New York Herald Tribune in the 1850s and ’60s? Marx was prettt heavy into political explanations for politics, actually — the pipeline/raspberry farm view is the kind of thing we used to call “vulgar” Marxism and I don’t think the old guy would be a fan.
I like Weekend War, myself.
August 15, 2008 at 8:25 am
[...] in response to Georgian aggression has been met with tired analogies to 1938 and Poland, again Godwining our national discourse, much to the delight of many a neoconservative. What we need is Cold War [...]
August 15, 2008 at 9:05 am
re: 66 — Wow. Up until there, Rationalitate had just seemed kind of loudly confused.. with a separate, though reasonable, opinion of the causes of the Five Day War…
But all of a sudden he breaks out the Big Guns-o-crazy.
What this tells me is that you really don’t know anything at all about the events surrounding the 1999 apartment bombings. Because if you did, you’d know that the absolutely standard no-question-about-it media account of what happens goes like so:
Buildings blow up across Russia. Russian government says it was the Chechens, says that they will catch Chechens. Very astute civilians notice Chechen terrorists attempting to blow up a building in Ryazan, alert police. Police test, say that bombs are hexogen, definitely standard Chechen terrorism, and that it would’ve been the most deadly bomb yet. Even more astute local civilians catch terrorists fleeing. Local police track down terrorists, confirm that they are the terrorists. Local police then find out that they are working for the FSB (post-Soviet domestic intelligence service). Higher-ups sweep in, declare that the whole thing was a training exercise, there were never any terrorists, and what tested positively as a bomb was actually sugar. Sugar destroyed, nobody can corroborate Russians’ latest claim. Scientist who did original testing still claims it was hexogen, not sugar, and that there is no way his original test failed. Unlucky soldier later finds bag marked sugar, actually filled with hexogen, brings account to Russia’s last remaining opposition paper. Unlucky soldier disappears, Russian military denies his existence. Many members of the Russian parliament die mysterious deaths while investigating this very shady story.
This is the undisputed account – it’s plastered all over every media source you can imagine, just waiting for someone like you to look into it. (But you probably won’t. More likely you’ll just denigrate the idea as crazy without even checking out the basic facts, which you evidently know nothing about. But just in case you get a wave of sanity, check out the impressively cited and incredibly comprehensive Wikipedia article on the bombings.) Now, if you can read that account and come away with the impression that Russia is telling the truth, you’re out-of-your-mind crazy.
August 15, 2008 at 9:59 am
Apparently in The Editors’ world, suggesting that politicians might resort to aggressive military action in order to secure oil supplies is crackpot conspiracy theorism – unless the politicians are American, in which case it’s quite OK.
August 15, 2008 at 10:50 am
@ajay: It’s an odd trend that I’ve noticed among supposedly libertarian writers: “libertarianism” is redefined to mean opposition to the US government, while ignoring the malevolent and anti-libertarian actions of all foreign governments. There’s a certain chauvinism inherent in it – that Americans deserve freedom, but as for the rest, maybe they’re just hardwired to like authoritarianism!
And in response to the editors’ denigration of the “Pipeline Theory of History,” I present to you that same exact theory espoused by the New York Times, the Washington Post, the Christian Science Monitor, the BBC, and – to get a non-anglophone perspective – Le Monde.
August 15, 2008 at 11:22 am
The problem, Rat, is that there is zero doubt that Chechen separatists *were* responsible for the Beslan school massacre. It’s possible to frame the guilty, you know…
August 15, 2008 at 11:35 am
If you think that there can ever been zero doubt about anything when it comes to Russia, the Caucasus, and terrorism, you’ve got bigger problems than we can deal with here. Chechens attacking and murdering Ossetian school children? It’s just all way too convenient for the Russian government. Especially in light of the massive and insurmountable questions related to the other two major acts of “Chechen” terrorism.
And don’t confuse lack of specific allegations with lack of generalized suspicion. Because there’s plenty of that.
August 15, 2008 at 11:37 am
Ajay-
Any link to a Poorman post positing that the Iraq war was untertaken to “secure oil supplies”? Cause I’ve been reading this blog since the beginning (like, since it was all UMass dorm jokes) and I sure can’t remember one.
August 15, 2008 at 12:00 pm
related to the other two major acts of “Chechen” terrorism.
Three:
russian airliner bombings
I’m unaware of a conspiracy angle on those.
August 15, 2008 at 2:25 pm
Anyway, the point of this post doesn’t have anything to with who was blown up by the Chechens vs. the FSB. It’s just that this war played out exactly the smae way that these things always do.
Let X be a big country with a big army. Let Y be some piece of real estate that may or may not be formlaly part of country X, but is definitely under its protection. And let Z be a smaller country that has some more or less legitimate claim to real estate Y, and decides to assert that claim by force.
X can be Russia … or the UK, or Turkey, or India, or the US.
Y can be South Ossetia … or the Falklands, or Northern Cyprus, or Kashmir, or Kuwait.
Z can be Georgia … or Argentina, or Cyprus, or Pakistan, or Iraq.
You could multiply the examples (and add a bunch more with the USA as X), and every time, you’d find that Z gets slapped down hard.
There’s no need to postulate any special Slvic villainy here. It’s just the way the world works.
August 15, 2008 at 3:05 pm
… And each time, the busy beavers on Wikipedia would have all the conspiracy theories fully footnoted.
Ecclesiastes was right.
August 15, 2008 at 3:33 pm
I’m unaware of a conspiracy angle on those.
1. Shamil Basayev eventually (though note, not immediately) took responsibility for the attacks. The same Shamil Basayev who took credit for attacks that Alexander Litvinenko (remember him?) said were done by the FSB. His involvement automatically raises questions.
2. Terrorist groups commit terrorist acts to raise awareness of causes. Shamil Basayev took months to take responsibility.
3. As you’ll note under the section “Responsibility” in the article that you linked to, who really committed the attacks is up for debate.
… And each time, the busy beavers on Wikipedia would have all the conspiracy theories fully footnoted.
Not only do they cite their sources, but they have intense discussions over whether it should be labeled a conspiracy theory. And what do you know – they decided that it shouldn’t be labeled a conspiracy theory. Why? Because it has backers among researchers at John Hopkins, the Hoover Institute, members of the Russian parliament, notable historians on the subject, very famous dead Russian defectors and other government notables, and presidential candidates.
It’s funny that you denigrate Wikipedia like this, because you could really learn something from the generally considered and critical approach to which Wikipedians make decisions, and especially so on articles like this one about very important, notable, and contentious events. You know, by actually looking at the evidence?
August 15, 2008 at 4:26 pm
Dear The Editors,
I think you are biased against conspiracy theorists. Here are a few more gems from Larouche:
http://larouchepac.com/news/2008/08/13/britains-georgia-gambit-so-hitler-invaded-poland.html
and
http://larouchepac.com/news/2008/08/15/british-government-georgia.html
The man seems to agree with your take on the Russian culpability….
I think The Editors are actually a British agent… in the pay of GEORGE SOROS! Bwahahahaha!
August 15, 2008 at 5:51 pm
I have a PhD in Chechniology, and what Rat.’s saying is true, however much you scoff.
August 15, 2008 at 8:16 pm
lemuel, you’re not the boss of me. Go Minutemen!
August 16, 2008 at 2:44 am
Dear The Editors,
I must regretfully inform you that your comment section contains source documents with ‘evidence’ obviously promogulated by wingnut conspiracy theorists, which is followed up by footnote links that I cannot possibly be asked to click on, being the pursuer of truth that I am.
I refer you to my previous posts, as I am too lazy to provide first-source links to evidence, due to my constitutionally derived right to laziness.
In any case, should this behaviour which you complicitly adhere to should/could result in my refusal to read your further propaganda.
PURPLE DRANK!
Sincerely,
doofus
(or something)
August 16, 2008 at 2:49 am
I really meant that The Editors is/are a(bunch) of ‘Buppie-Boomerz(???)’
Teh awesome, that…
August 16, 2008 at 8:28 am
I nominate:
“but if you’re wrong on the fundamentals you are (right!/wrong!) (x3) AND you have a huge boot jammed up your ass, which is arguably more significant, especially for your ass”
for best policy advice of the year!
August 16, 2008 at 10:21 am
Killing Ma, Pa, and the Kids, with high explosives in the dead of night, while they’re “nestled all snug in their beds”, is not a nice thing to do.
August 16, 2008 at 11:45 am
BP closed the pipeline because Kurds had bombed the other end of it a few days before.
Ethnic cleansing is fun and easy for the armchair statesman, not so much for people uprooted from the town where their ancestors had lived for at least 400 years and then shipped 500 miles away to move into a house others were forced to leave—those were my in-laws.
August 16, 2008 at 2:10 pm
In defiant retort to the titular rhetorical query, and bellicose provocation of the Pious Rationalitate and the Phlegmatic Progressive, I hereby proclaim myself, the imitable [sic] CATSQUISHER, mustacheoed tyrant of the day, puerile avatar and all.
Surrender–all comers constitutionally incapable of irreverence–or die!
August 20, 2008 at 1:14 am
re 76: Proof that the ability to form complete sentences is no proof of rationality.
Which is kind of a shame… It would, after all, be significantly easier to pick out which internet chatter was K-RaZy Conspiracy Theories!!!!1#!#!#!!@@1! if the author alway spoke (/typed) in incoherent jumbles.
Alas. Perhaps what we need is some sort of legally mandated “TeRm WoLvErInE” for all nuts. Call your congressman today, kids.
August 20, 2008 at 8:12 pm
Proof that a funny granimaltar is no proof of something:
I’m a Bat-Winged Christmas T-Rex!
Now settle down before I have to start stomping heads. (Lookin’ at you, Bimler!)
~
October 28, 2008 at 8:17 pm
[...] happens to be on the front page and noting how much everybody looks like Neville Chamberlain, it is an annoying habit of American pundits, and politicians, to think everything requires some kind of definitive and [...]
March 24, 2009 at 3:31 pm
nancy pelosi and barack obama the communist of the US
March 24, 2009 at 3:33 pm
i know right cant stand those 2 @!#%$*
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
March 24, 2009 at 3:36 pm
nancy pelosi and baroc obama communist i know what u mean
March 26, 2009 at 4:31 am
ya man i here ya i get what ya saying