John Aravosis asks (re: Rick Warren):
I’m reading a lot about how Obama “reaches out” to his adversaries, and that’s why he’s building a track record of inviting avowed homophobes to stand front and center at his campaign events and now his inauguration.
Okay, I’m game. So we know being a gay-basher doesn’t disqualify you from a seat at the Obama table – in fact, it seems to be an outright qualification for proving Obama’s post-partisanship. If Obama prides himself on reaching out to all sides of every debate, then why is it that Obama has never sat down with, or promoted at his events, an avowed racist or anti-Semite?
(Via Kos.) To state the obvious: Rick Warren isn’t there to represent (metaphorical) “gay-bashers”, he’s representing (white) Christians. Now, Christians, as a group, are primarily concerned with stopping abortion, gay sex, and fucking generally – I understand this isn’t universal among Christians, but the anti-gay and anti-abortion jihadis do exist in large numbers in this country, and I doubt many of them come from the secular humanist community (all of whom are going to be tortured in flames forever by the Merciful Sky God for noticing that this is fucking retarded.) People with very well-thought-out theological arguments about why 70-whatever percent of Christians are not really Christian can present them to me right after I present my dissertation on why Batman could beat up Darth Vader if Thundarr the Barbarian let him borrow his Sun Sword, and also a hundred other brilliant arguments based on fiction. Apologies to believing Christians and Jedis.
To answer John’s question: give it a month. Barack Obama will then sit down with, and promote at state events, a parade of very non-metaphorical racists, anti-Semites, murders, tyrants, torturers, and worse, many of whom are our very great friends. He will do it for these essentially the same reason that he has, and will again, court Rick Warren – because they are players in the international sphere much as I gather Mr. Warren is in the domestic. And so they will be offered these symbolic concessions in the hope that they are stupid enough to trade them for material concessions. And it often works: you’d be surprised how many people expect politics to validate their identity, and for whom the ultimate prize is to win meaningless symbolic triumphs over their rivals. It’s called “politics”, the business of negotiating the world of humans, most of whom are scorching assholes and insecure idiots. There are ways of avoiding this unpleasantness, but they all involve not being a politician. The Game is the Game.
Is this smart politics? Will courting Warren indeed weaken the Republican stranglehold on white evangelicals? I don’t know, and neither do you. Warren is being given a symbolic victory in exchange for the possibility of material political gain for a liberal agenda. That’s a trade you take every single time.
December 18, 2008 at 9:00 pm
Bravo.
I’m having flashbacks to the first three months of 1993. Oh god please make it stop.
December 18, 2008 at 9:16 pm
You know, I am supposed to be the shortsighted Republican stooge in this little drama- at least that was the part I signed up for years ago before my rehabilitation at snarkpoint, but when you write things like:
When you write that all I can say is I kiss you. KISS KISS KISS. In the most ghey way possible.
PS- Tom Brady is still a fag.
December 18, 2008 at 9:21 pm
The matter of it
The only way I want to see this Rick warren on the Inaugural rostrum thing get material, is for Obama, right after he’s sworn in, and therefore has official immunity, personally throw Warren from the rostrum. We know that Warren, being material, will proceed to fall to the ground a story or two below. With any luck he’ll break his all-too-material neck.
Anything less will be a sellout. It would materially effect my support for Obama. Call me a scorching asshole and insecure idiot, but I need the occasional symbolic victory from time to time, or, at the very least, to not be symbolically Sodomized by folks I worked my ass off to put on that Inaugural rostrum.
December 18, 2008 at 9:27 pm
I’m actually with Kos on this one. Raising a motherfucker of a stink, as we have done in this case, has forced Obama to come out firmly in favor of gay rights.
These guys don’t do much of anything unless they’re constantly being shrieked at. I for one am quite happy to oblige.
December 18, 2008 at 9:35 pm
You are wrong. Obama has said nothing new, and his statement today was nothing more than a reiteration of previous statement and a decade of support.
I understand the need to feel relevant, but for fuck’s sake, was I the only one listening to him for the last year? His position has not changed one bit.
/tequila
December 18, 2008 at 9:59 pm
Yes yes yes. I agree. But couldn’t have Obama found a pastor who doesn’t have a smug little smirk begging to be smashed with a baseball bat?
December 18, 2008 at 10:02 pm
Warren is being given a symbolic victory in exchange for the possibility of material political gain
I would be much more comfortable knowing that Obama got something for this. Presumably he didn’t hand over his microphone to Warren for nothing, because that would be truly fucking stupid. If Obama doesn’t score some material victory for Warren’s symbolic one, I’ll be counted pissed.
December 18, 2008 at 10:20 pm
and his statement today was nothing more than a reiteration of previous statement and a decade of support.
Ah so, but he was forced to reiterate it. In front of lots of cameras. Keep pushing back, people.
Atrios wants the massive crowd to turn their backs on Pastor Fuckheaddouchebagasshole when he gives his spiel on Ig Day. That would be a nice gesture.
December 18, 2008 at 10:25 pm
Off topic, but this surely must be a glimpse of Hell (I haven’t viewed it. I don’t think I could take stomach it.)
December 18, 2008 at 10:52 pm
Off topic, but this surely must be a glimpse of Hell (I haven’t viewed it. I don’t think I could take stomach it.)
The…horror.
The…horror.
Excuse me while I drive two sharpened steel spikes into my eyes.
December 18, 2008 at 11:05 pm
[...] perspective on Rick Warren From The Poor Man Institute: To state the obvious: Rick Warren isn’t there to represent (metaphorical) “gay-bashers”, [...]
December 18, 2008 at 11:08 pm
[...] religious invocations of any kind, so they could be delivered by Jesus himself for all I care. The Editors have put it best, so I will quote them and be [...]
December 19, 2008 at 1:03 am
right after I present my dissertation on why Batman could beat up Darth Vader if Thundarr the Barbarian let him borrow his Sun Sword
Umm, to be honest, that sounds more like a journal paper or at best a masters thesis at a second tier school. I will admit it is an intriguing hypothesis that you presented.
On topic, this is about as stupid as all of the other panics about Obama not being some leftist pipe dream. People need to chill out.
December 19, 2008 at 1:33 am
TortureR’US, motherfuckers.
December 19, 2008 at 3:45 am
That’s right all present and future offended factions of the Democratic Party need to look to Obama’s executive actions, the execution of the law, and his legislative agenda, hopefully for relief.
I understand why Obama is throwing the Smiley Evangelical sector a cracker by acknowledging that Warren is the new Billy Graham, moving the power center to the Rocky’s Big 12 North from the Southeastern Conference in the hopes of instilling a sense of moderation and having a hope that Carter Evangelicals stay with him and White Men give him a chance for three months. Obama has to deliver tangible benefit in order to sustain political capital. Clinton’s Family Leave Act is a good example of something that administration passed early that people benefited from in a tangible way. The GOP fought it like quicksand, and judo won again. I’ve noticed the GOP is still conducting the campaign like the election never happened, instead of rolling out something new. It’s so sad, they are so pathetic. The voters still aren’t buying Ayers, Joe the Plumber, and Palin. The GOP used to be evil and crafty, now their just the Guild of Calamitous Intent. Who is their leader? Mitch McConnell? Sarah Palin? Gingrich? Talk about a power vacuum the size of scary.
I don’t think it works much for Obama to involve Warren. I don’t think they thought it was a major tactical move. What the GLB community is really pissed about is the non-appointment of an open GBL in the cabinet. I think it’s too “see through” and the previously stated factions have played music chairs in November and Angry White Know-Nothings from South Carolina are sitting on the laps of Highlands Ranch CO, Independent Social Gospel Ex-Californians, and are about to be awkwardly pushed off. Obama did better then Bush with every group and assume as so with Warren’s constituents. Obama feels the GLB community has no place to go as far as voting for another party, they’ll get theirs through policy application. I think Obama shouldn’t expect to gain or lose too much by this, as the news cycle is about to spin out of control in 100 days of furious legislative and executive fury.
Who should be slightly pissed is Labor, but maybe someone can illuminate me on Solis. If someone can assure me she is a hyper-competent executive powerhouse instead of the only person who got through the vetting process. Granhol nor Bonier wanted the job, which indicates to me that they weren’t impressed by Obama’s pitch as to the role of a new labor secretary. Why not consider the appointment of a member of the NLRB on the same day to raise the importance of collective bargaining? If Obama thinks he’s going to put labor on the back burner, he is as fucking crazy as Wolverine Professor sipping barrel aged tequila in a snifter. Again, I believe the plan is deception, subterfuge, and special ops installation of the progressive agenda while we try not to startle the white men into forming active Mahdi Army Militias. We put the vitamins the milkshake.
December 19, 2008 at 5:13 am
I pretty much agree on this. I wonder, tho, if involving Warren in something he and Obama agree on–stopping climate change, for example–might be a better way to engage him and his supporters without pissing off Obama’s supporters. Either way I see the rationality of the move, but speaking as one of teh gay, I gotta tell you it gets tiring being the go-to whipping boy. Why is it that when the smart, pragmatic and/or centerist Democrats decide that somebody will just have to take one more hit for the team, it usually ends up being us?
December 19, 2008 at 5:37 am
but, WADR, isn’t symbolic differences what we voted for in the primaries?
December 19, 2008 at 5:53 am
Possibly the right strategy in the completely wrong venue. It’s fucking idiotic to have warren prancing to and fro on the inauguration stage. You want to play patty cake with him in another place for another reason, yes. Sucker the fuckers in and drop them. But here and now, during the inauguration, it wasn’t so much a brilliant strategic move as just a plain old fuck up.
Hey, maybe in the end Obama ends up winning the jujitsu match because of this. If so, great for him, god for all of us. If not, he ends up looking like a pandering, spineless who quickly turns his back on his base. Wonder where I’ve heard that before?
In the end and in the big picture, airheads such as warren really shouldn’t be lauded as anything other than the blubbery homobigot, anti-women scum they are. Sorry.
December 19, 2008 at 6:39 am
With what’s going on in the world right now, it’s fucking unbelievable this is even a news story.
December 19, 2008 at 7:00 am
I for one am thrilled that the GLBT rights movement has progressed far enough that this is all we have left to kerfluffle about.
December 19, 2008 at 7:08 am
Personally I hope at least 75% of the crowd follows Atrios’s suggestion. But Dead Jesus on a Stick, get a grip and drink deep of the Editors’ and John Cole’s wisdom. Warren’s shtick will be over with in 90 seconds, Obama will have made monkeys out of the people raving about his secret Mooslimship, and we’ll all have a shitload of bigger problems to do nothing about.
December 19, 2008 at 7:14 am
It appears to me that true outrage from the base works best when it’s sparingly applied, for things that really matter. Think Bush and Harriet Miers. Am I saying that Rick Warren doesn’t really matter? Yes. Yes I am. Because compared to health care, labor law reform, the looming depression, gay rights and the ongoing wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, Rick Warren doesn’t really matter even the tiniest bit. If we all shriek and clutch our pearls every time Obama shares the same breathing space with someone whose views we don’t like, he’ll soon get in the habit of ignoring the uproar. Save it for the big stuff. This is small potatoes.
December 19, 2008 at 7:15 am
Rich Warren is fat. Almost as fat as Michael Moore.
December 19, 2008 at 7:53 am
Well said Jennifer.
December 19, 2008 at 8:02 am
Lots of wisdom ’round this joint.
December 19, 2008 at 8:30 am
But couldn’t have Obama found a pastor who doesn’t have a smug little smirk begging to be smashed with a baseball bat?
All three of ‘em were already booked.
December 19, 2008 at 8:32 am
The Game is the Game. Well said.
Wake me when something important happens.
December 19, 2008 at 8:35 am
Absolutely. This is why, WADR, many of us had to be physically restrained from drinking ourselves into sweet, sweet oblivion for that entire 50-month ordeal. Some of us, sadly, could not be restrained …
Yeas, dear. We gathered.
You aren’t wrong about that, either. Just remember what the stakes are in this current Seinfeldian imbroglio.
December 19, 2008 at 9:04 am
Dude, Vader takes down Batman even with Thundarr’s sword.
The better question is who would win in a cage match between Ookla and Chewbacca.
December 19, 2008 at 9:14 am
What James and ice weasel said. I’ve been telling people to expect to be disappointed by Obama, but this is surprising. The inauguration is personal. He could have chosen anyone to speak. The fact that he chose a right wing bigot, instead of a minister who is not hateful, is galling and depressing. We wanted such people run out of town; instead, they’re invited to dinner. Most Christians are not like Warren, so, unless a specific political deal was made, the gain is limited, the loss, substantial.
December 19, 2008 at 9:14 am
Wow. A sanity thread.
December 19, 2008 at 9:22 am
Rick Warren likes the new Knight Rider, for crying out loud. He wants to enslave machine-human hybrids. I can’t believe the Editors are so complacent!
This is a great blow to supporters of Transcopterism everywhere. :(
December 19, 2008 at 9:24 am
Warren is being given a symbolic victory in exchange for the possibility of material political gain for a liberal agenda. That’s a trade you take every single time.
Um, no. Giving something to a Republican in exchange for the possibility of getting something in return is a trade you don’t make, ever. Because that “possibility” will resolve to zero every fucking time. How have you not noticed this? We’re going to trust in the good faith of Rick Warren? What the fuck?
You may regard a “symbolic victory” lightly, so it’s all right to get nothing in return. But it’s something we could have given somebody on our side. And they might have repaid us for it, too. In added loyalty, for instance. You know, like the loyalty we didn’t show someone on our side by giving this victory to Warren.
December 19, 2008 at 9:36 am
Considering that Evangelicals are 26% of the US population, it behooves Democrats to extend the olive branch.
Warren has recently said he is in favor of gay civil rights, which is a step in the right direction and about as far to the left as you are going to get within the parameters of the current evangelical community.
Expect Obama to extend Bush’s “faith based” charity funding to Warren’s group. This will further pacify a significant segment of a group normally strongly aligned with Republicans.
Obama’s peace-making with the Evangelicals will make it far easier to pass gay rights legislation. Maybe not marriage, but everything else.
December 19, 2008 at 10:34 am
“Run these guys out of town”? “Our side”? What election were you all watching? This is exactly the mentality Obama ran against. This kind of stunt not only isn’t surprising, but is expected. I, for one, am willing to play along to see if maybe there’s something to this “transformational” talk.
Still, the point made about these guys not doing anything unless they are shrieked at is legit, so I say shriek away. Hell, at least there’s the possibility of a conversation now.
December 19, 2008 at 11:19 am
They’ll be pacified? What planet are you from? Will my partner get Obamacare before he gets fired? See, he can’t get on my employer’s group insurance because of people like Warren. Straight people are the new white people. Discrimination isn’t really real to you, is it? But I agree with the Editors that there are bigger issues.
December 19, 2008 at 12:08 pm
Considering that Evangelicals are 26% of the US population, it behooves Democrats to kick the football yet again.
(Fixed).
Expect Obama to extend Bush’s “faith based” charity funding to Warren’s group. This will further pacify a significant segment of a group normally strongly aligned with Republicans.
If it works out that way, I’ll eat my hat. And if we were dealing with a run-of-the-mill demographic, I might agree with you. But the fundagelicals will not be pacified; they will not stop until Roe v Wade is stricken from the books and gays are safely sequestered back in the closet. You can’t compromise with people whose sense of self-worth hinges on completely disenfranchising you. Instead, giving them the patina of legitimacy will only encourage them, and we will lose ground.
December 19, 2008 at 12:13 pm
[...] Precisely. [...]
December 19, 2008 at 12:17 pm
As Digby says much more eloquently than I’m about to – Republicans (Bush being the latest example) never fed their base shit sandwiches, and what did that get them – just 30 years of rule. Why is only the left required to eat shit sandwiches?
December 19, 2008 at 12:26 pm
This thread delivers.
A bunch of people telling the Editors he is not cynical enough is always a win in my book. Funny stuff.
December 19, 2008 at 12:41 pm
A bunch of people telling the Editors he is not cynical enough is always a win in my book. Funny stuff.
Hey, someone has to push the envelope.
December 19, 2008 at 12:48 pm
The Editors is cynical enough (and he’s right), but it seems he’s not gay.
Steve: Wouldn’t you say “Run them out of town” about racists? But not homophobes? And I think “Our side” means sane people who value the constitution, rule of law, justice, and other niceties of civilization. I have no beef with Christians except when they are attacking me.
December 19, 2008 at 12:57 pm
Hilda Solis is great.
Re Warren: is it too late to vote for Nader? Maybe I did, I just can’t remember because I’m lightheaded from all the shrieking I do.
GODDAM THE LACK OF PREVIEW FUNCTION — EDITORS, I HATE YOU!
December 19, 2008 at 1:01 pm
Wouldn’t you say “Run them out of town” about racists? But not homophobes?
That depends on the context. Allow me to make my point by way of quoting something Mícháél Bérúbé wrote:
If, back in ‘64, LBJ had been sworn in alongside someone in the “faith discussion” who opposed what they used to call “miscegenation,” and who claimed that proponents of interracial marriage were infringing on his right to free speech, we wouldn’t call that “bringing together all sides” and “searching for common ground” today. We’d call it…uh, what would we call it? “Shameful,” maybe, if we were being kind.
Maybe we wouldn’t have called it that back then – even if we would call it that now. Back then, we might have just accepted the fact that such gestures were part of the overall struggle for equality.
In fact, Johnson had many an avowed racist over to the White House, and appeared with others at high profile events. He did not shun them, and wasn’t really called on to by any significant bloc.
That’s partly because Johnson was trying to win over those figures, and their constituents, and part of that process involves reducing tension – loosening the resistance by remaining inclusive, and toning down the confrontationalism.
The hope is that Obama is widening his embrace because he will also be pushing an equality agenda (the same way LBJ did), and is seeking to facilitate the process.
If he fails to push for that agenda, then he deserves all of the criticism he gets – and I for one won’t spare him. But I’m willing to accept that sometimes change is incremental, and involves courting people whose views are abhorrent. But then, when you’re trying to change minds, it’s often because you find the output of said minds to be objectionable in the first place.
December 19, 2008 at 1:09 pm
You’re point would be better made without referring to a famous counterexample.
December 19, 2008 at 1:26 pm
My point would be better made without misspellings.
DAMN YOU EDITORS AND LACK OF EDIT FUNCTION — SELL OUT!
December 19, 2008 at 1:55 pm
“Johnson was trying to win over those figures, and their constituents…The hope is that Obama is widening his embrace because he will also be pushing an equality agenda…”
Good analogy and I’m also hopeful, but, oh dear, I’m still clutching my pearls!
December 19, 2008 at 2:54 pm
Is this a good move in the game of politics? It comes down to this: either Obama is
1) a triangulating, sister-souljah-momenting, leftie-bashing douchebag, or;
2) the best there ever wuz at the peak of his craft.
Option 2 is closing out real soon now.
December 19, 2008 at 4:17 pm
Someday someone’s going to explain to me why being mean to one of Public Enemy’s Hype Girls (and becoming the only 2-term Democratic president of the past half-century), 16 years after, the one unforgivable sin of American politics. And then I am going to head-butt my desk in half.
December 19, 2008 at 4:39 pm
Straight people are the new white people. Discrimination isn’t really real to you, is it?
Gosh, that’s a lovely theory, but unfortunately I, too, find Obama’s decision to let Warren take the stage absolutely fucking infuriating, and I somehow managed to come to this conclusion without knowing that particular, exquisite pain which is yours and yours alone.
Oh, and that handful of gay commenters who tried (unsuccessfully, though they certainly had valid points) to calm me down and make me see what a smart tactical move this is? House homos, the lot of ‘em.
Oh well. I guess we’ll just have to agree to agree.
December 19, 2008 at 5:12 pm
This is why, WADR, many of us had to be physically restrained from drinking ourselves into sweet, sweet oblivion for that entire 50-month ordeal.
Well, geez, my few lonely remaining brain cells wish I’d thought of that.
December 19, 2008 at 6:52 pm
It’s hard to tell now if Sister Souljah was ever a real person. I’d never heard of her before Bill Clinton had his moment with her, or after.
But Clinto felt he had say something about her so he could finally join Broder’s Beltway Club. And didn’t they cheer him on.
It’s a whole new millenium now. We’ve got a black dude as President. Why we can’t finally dispense with the moronic initiation ritual for newly inaugurated Democrats that requires them to soothe the bow-tie wingnut set by publicly dissing some old (hippie/leftie/bunch of homos) you’ve never heard of.
December 19, 2008 at 7:27 pm
The Sistah Souljah move is a set piece only to be attempted by the most skillful monks at the Temple. That’s why!
December 19, 2008 at 7:37 pm
As shit sandwiches go, this one seems mostly bologna and limburger, with a lot of mustard. Sure, it (and tequila) will cause some bad dreams, but in a few days it will be forgotten.
December 19, 2008 at 8:32 pm
Bah. If we can’t bitch about our own guys what kind of Democrats are we? John Cole’s new to this and it’s all baffling and strange to him.
Personally I don’t think this was any sort of calculated strategic move; I think Obama personally likes Warren because of their past association and is essentially returning a favor. In doing so, he made a mistake, displeasing important constituencies who are already feeling neglected, and he can’t take it back now without looking like a bigger chump.
To put it in perspective, this is microscopic compared to Clinton’s various early blunders in 1993, and Obama’s already way ahead of early Clinton on appointments (he has to be, the nation’s in far greater crisis). But it’s a mistake.
December 19, 2008 at 9:09 pm
Well put.
Giving the invocation at the inauguration isn’t a political event.
It’s a civic event. A civil event.
We can be civil with these people. They can be civil with us. We’ve all gotta live here together, so let’s see if we can’t use those civic events to affirm that.
The Right Reverend isn’t going to stand there and give a speech about gay rights, so we don’t have to stand there and fret about his political position on gay rights. He’s going to say some nice words about America and Barack Obama – that’s what a benediciton is, nice words – and it doesn’t have to be anything but nice unless he, or we, do something to ruin it.
December 19, 2008 at 9:54 pm
Also, for what it’s worth, here’s Steven Brust arguing that we should really be outraged about Salazar, Vilsack, Duncan, Gates and Hillary Clinton, all of which appointments, he says, are betrayals of all that is good and true.
To tell the truth, I’ve gotten radicalized enough by the past eight years that I’m a little creeped out by the idea of having a guy from my party even be President. Maybe I should join the Socialist Workers Party or something.
December 20, 2008 at 1:01 am
I support Obama entirely and will continue to do so, and I still say he’s wrong for having this guy give an invocation, or whatever the fuck it’s called.
I’m irreligious, so the whole thing is slightly silly to me personally, but Christ on a saltine cracker, we just went through the whole Prop 8 bullshit — this isn’t the time to have someone like this give a “blessing” on the next 4 years.
Editors, I love you dearly — you’re the funniest thing for political commentary. But to my mind a “symbolic concession” misses the point that 95% of politics is symbolic. It’s like Napoleon saying “I made a strategic concession at Waterloo.”
John Cole, I love you too in a made-for-TV-non-gay-arm-around-the-shoulder way, but you’re wrong too.
December 20, 2008 at 9:47 am
gil mann: When I said “straight people”, I meant the ones saying, “chill out”, like joe from Lowell: obviously clueless. (Sorry joe, but Warren is not civil, he promotes hatred that leads to real harms. Is the KKK civil as long as they promise not to lynch anyone?)
But I think straight people can be cool sometimes, you know, when they’re one of the good ones.
December 20, 2008 at 10:41 am
Oh, that ship has sailed anyway. It was a bizarre ritual, but it’s also perfectly painless procedure that, performed correctly, made a Democrat President. (Literally: Sister Souljah was a part-time background vocalist for PE, who somehow said something so dumb that Republican talking heads mentioned it on TV chat shows. This was and is her entire contribution to the human endeavor.) Here’s how it works:
1. Some incredibly obscure nobody says something stupid.
2. Republicans spend a few news cycles saying that this represents what Real Democrats think and how no Democrat would dare to contradict her.
3. Democrats, being Democrats, spend several news cycles trying to carve out a centrist position between 1. some obscure nobody the Republicans dug up who represents noblody and 2. Republicans.
4. After some days of this, Bill Clinton says “Sister Souljah? Yo, fuck that bitch.”
5. The press gasps at the incredible courage he displays in publicly condemning a total nobody who their Republican colleagues have just spent an entire week of the McLaughlin Group building up a the new Fidel Fonda Ho Chih Streisand 3rd rail of Democratic base politics.
We still have steps 1-4, but now when someone slays the Republican boogeyman, the press ignores it and fixates on a new boogeyman nobody’s ever heard of; hence the parade of Wright, Farrakhan, Ayers, etc. (Maybe Sister Souljahing only works if you’re a good ole boy. Perhaps Obama should have condemned Uncle Cracker.) In certain quarters, I gather, it is considered counterrevolutionary to do anything but offer full-throated support to whatever freak Republican media operatives dredge up to represent Democrats (ensuring that these freaks do have some instant support the moment they are elevated into the public eye), and that it is the ultimate betrayal/triangulation/appeasement not to charge headlong into a rigged fight promoted by the GOP. There are other opinions.
December 20, 2008 at 10:53 am
Noel, I know, but there are gays saying “chill out” too. Not a lot, and again, they didn’t chill me out, but they’re not Log Cabiners or anything. They just think Obama’s playing a few moves ahead of the rest of us and honestly, I wouldn’t bet money against that, at least not in this economy. And go easy on Joe; he’s obviously on the right side of the issue in the long run, and if clueless allies bother you, this ain’t the species to be a member of.
Sorry if I went off there, It’s just that every time someone pulls rank based on their personal demographic I flash back to that three-hour period in the early 90s when political correctness and identity politics were actual things instead of headers on right-wing direct mail. And speaking of that era…
As dumb as the Sistah Souljah thing was, what she said was pretty dumb too, and she didn’t really help her case by appearing on the PE track that threatened assassination against McCain & Kyl. Great song, but I doubt MLK would’ve been too thrilled about it.
Really sweet in person though (same opthamologist, if memory serves), and adorable. I briefly considered how cool it would be to get shot down by her but I didn’t have the nads.
December 20, 2008 at 3:16 pm
Batman would so not beat up Darth Vader!! Because: an encounter with Darth Vader would teach Batman what he never had a chance to learn in Gotham City—that it’s not enough to defeat individual Bad Guys (what happens then is that you just end up facing a different villain); what you have to do instead is rearrange the system so that the Bad Guys don’t find it so easy to take advantage of it and of you. Batman would never beat up Darth Vader; what he’d do is, he’d subvert the workings of the Empire to the point where Darth Vader would become irrelevant. And about time, too.
December 21, 2008 at 8:29 am
This isn’t a symbolic victory for the right, it’s an actual fuck you to teh gays and their allies.
In case you hadn’t noticed, entire churches are splitting over the gay rights fight and there are some extremely corageous folks standing up to their church hierarchies in defense of basic human rights. Finding a pastor on the right side of this and giving them a high profile spot wouldn’t have been very fucking hard, but it would have taken actual nads (read: telling conservatives, not liberals, to fuck off) and an actual commitment to advancing gay rights. Sadly, neither is present in the Obama camp. This administration is going to bite ass.
December 21, 2008 at 9:36 am
Juan Cole points out that Rick Warren actually really is among the better evangelicals when it comes to understanding Islam and world poverty issues — and that Melissa Etheridge is reaching out to Warren (a move I’m afraid will kill her career):
http://www.juancole.com/2008/12/rick-warren-i-love-muslims-i-happen-to.html
December 21, 2008 at 11:01 am
I read Cole’s post, and disagree 100%.. I’ve seen, and known, scam artists, and know how much of a face they can put on to convince people they are their friends. From everything I’ve seen and read and know of Warren, he is that type. It is possible that he suffers from so much cognitive dissonance that he is completely and honestly two-faced, but I don’t see it. Professor Cole fell for a charismatic (I actually said that?!) scum-sucking pig-porking slimy bottom-feeding excuse for a human being.
Simple, really. Happens all the time.
December 21, 2008 at 11:41 am
Warren reminds me of Jerry Falwell: not so much two-faced as a complete fraud. Honoring him really is a disgrace, whatever else may transpire. The one thing that would make this acceptable is if Obama has made a deal… with a R senator to stab the GOP in the back when they vote for cloture on an important bill. If that happens, I’ll need to apologize for the email I sent him c/o David Plouffe.
December 21, 2008 at 12:46 pm
Look, the only way in the long run to reduce the power and influence of people like Warren and of his movement is through PR. Warren and his followers are fools and bigots. Their belief system, although popular and widespread, is fundamentally not acceptable in a pluralistic secular nation. If powerful and respected public figures like Obama go around treating Warren like he’s reasonable and good, then great masses of people will go on thinking he’s reasonable and good and that his belief system isn’t automatically toxic and loathsome. And so assholes like him will get to keep raping our society for that much longer.
The only reliable way to combat bigotry in the public sphere is through shame and ostracism. People like Warren must be marginalised and rendered socially radioactive, like the KKK. Yes, this will drive the believers deeper into their cocoons, but they are not on our side and never will be. They’re crazy. When they end up agreeing with us it’s mostly by accident. They have terrible judgment and terrible priorities.
Reaching out to Warren might make sense in terms of short-term politics. It makes no sense at all when you take a longer view.
December 21, 2008 at 1:10 pm
You mean like Rev. Lowery?
Oh, my bad. OBAMA SUCKS AND HATES TEH GAYZ AND I MIGHT AS WELL HAVE VOTED FOR MCCAIN PALIN. Slap in the face!
Sorry, I am new to this circular fir=ing squad shit.
December 21, 2008 at 6:34 pm
Arguments about strategic bloc-splitting aside, I’m still going with my initial reaction to the announcement: “Him?! Are you fucking kidding?”
December 21, 2008 at 9:02 pm
What if he’s doing something else? Like getting all of these people together, some who agree with him and some who don’t, and saying you can be part of this new thing we are doing. But you are going to have to buy into respecting everyone, just because they’re fellow Americans, not just the people who agree with you. Because this administration has to serve EVERYBODY.
Maybe he thinks that if he can get people talking to each other respectfully, they will have to change their intolerant minds, little by little. Or at least begin to understand that in our society religion has to take a backseat to equal rights.
If you look back at his speech on race, he was acknowledging people’s humanity and different experiences without writing them off as rascists even though they made racist statements in certain contexts. It sounded like he had to learn to do this because some of these people were members of his own family that he loved for their good qualities. It’s not that big a step from not demonizing your relatives to not demonizing your fellow citizens.
December 21, 2008 at 10:12 pm
“You mean like Rev. Lowery?
Oh, my bad. OBAMA SUCKS AND HATES TEH GAYZ AND I MIGHT AS WELL HAVE VOTED FOR MCCAIN PALIN. Slap in the face!”
Uh, no. Let’s review: civil rights icon, good choice; dumb fatty who thinks gay=pedophile, poor choice.
Just a reminder, John – it’s ok to disagree with the guy in charge, even if you generally like him. That’s what makes lefty blogs interesting and righty blogs teh suck.
Like I said, totally unnecessary choice. A president who wants to be seen as a champion of gay rights (as Obama apparently does) needs to take concrete steps to that end. That means rewarding people who advance gay rights and telling bigots to fuck off. What this choice seems to indicate (though it’s too early to tell) is that gay rights aren’t actually his priority – he’d rather be friendly with a bigot. In cold political terms that could be excused if it were necessary for getting stuff done, but I don’t buy that in this case – it just legitimizes Warren without getting our side a damn thing. And for nytonc, demonizing is calling a consensual adult sexual choice equivalent to child rape – calling that statement idiotic bigotry is just the truth.
December 22, 2008 at 7:15 am
Remember how entertaining it was to watch the voters Bush pandered to during election cycles and then screwed sideways with his economic plans cheer him on and construct byzantine arguments explaining how each time he spat in their faces it was actually out of love and loyalty? Remember how achingly, howlingly hilarious that was? Remember the sheer joy of watching the very voters the GOP sold out time and time again keep coming back and licking Herr President’s boots over and over?
Here’s a mirror, guys.
Oh, and BlackJesus wants to be able to look down and see himself in those goddamned boots when you’re done with them.
Rock ‘n roll.
Deal with it.