PAUL SOLMAN: Of all the cultures you’ve studied that have tried to deal with severe economic dislocations, what’s the marker of resiliency?
JARED DIAMOND: It seems to me that one of the predictors of a happy versus an unhappy outcome has to do with the role of the elite or the decision-makers or the politicians or the rich people within the society.
If the society is structured so that the decision-makers themselves suffer from the consequences of their decisions, then they’re motivated to make decisions that are good for the whole society, whereas if the decision-makers can make decisions that insulate themselves from the rest of society, then they’re likely to make decisions that are bad for the rest of society.
PAUL SOLMAN: Case in point, says Diamond, the place they call the city of New Orleans.
JARED DIAMOND: One could ask, why is it that, for 10 years, people around New Orleans dithered and they wouldn’t adopt these plans for a few hundred million dollars to build the dikes? And part of the reason is that there’s geographic segregation in New Orleans, where the rich people live on the higher ground and knew perfectly well that they were less exposed to problems from flooding.
PAUL SOLMAN: Compare that to the Netherlands, he says, where the system of dikes is considered one of the seven wonders of the modern world.
JARED DIAMOND: There aren’t any mansions on top of the dikes. Everybody is living down below in the polders. And they know — the politicians and rich people know that, if the dikes failed, they would drown. [...]
PAUL SOLMAN: But to the extent that this economic dislocation affects the wealthy, that’s good?
JARED DIAMOND: I think I would like to see the rich suffer even more and — and the politicians suffer even more.
PAUL SOLMAN: Because it would be good for us?
JARED DIAMOND: Yes, because they would then be motivated to solve all of our problems, and they wouldn’t have the sense that, “It’ll be OK for us.”
This – along with the need for money – would be a very good reason to make the rich pay for everything. Also a good reason: because fuck them. But how to do it? There are arguments against raising the income tax, particularly during a recession – you should let the wealth trickle down, we shouldn’t do anything to discourage investment, because it’s “class warfare”. Fine. Bring back the Death Tax, except this time, bring it back at 100%.
People who become wealthy are certainly very lucky, but they also must have done something which some people consider very useful. Maybe they are good at business, or very smart, or they can hit a baseball very well, or whatever – I doubt anybody really deserves to make $1 million a year, no matter what they do, but obviously the wallets of America disagree with me here. But being born rich is not a useful skill, and anyway, most rich kids are huge douchebags (I speak here as an expert, having seen every Bad News Bears movie multiple times). Think about the rich kids in public life: George W. Bush, Jonah Goldberg, Bill Kristol, George Steinbrenner, Paris Hilton, etc. Dumb, angry, entitled, douchebags. So, when you think about it, taking away a burdensome inheritance and forcing them to deal with life’s problems like the rest of us is a kindness, and will help our nation’s fortunate sons and daughters be happier, more productive, and more connected to the lives and concerns of their fellow citizens. The nasty politics, the drug habits, the superior attitude – these are all signs of profound social and spiritual alienation. So while society would be taking away “their” money, they would be receiving something infinitely more valuable in return: LOVE. Because that’s what life is all about.
And also because fuck them.
March 14, 2009 at 12:18 am
Politicians and therefor Government serves the economic interests that write them checks, because retention of power is the primary motivation of power. There are novel ways to take money out of politics whilst not infringing on free speech. Then the politicians would have to serve all the people, because all the people would have the same power as some of the people.
If a family of four that make $50,000 a year had the same capital infusion capacity that a family of that makes $500,000 a year, by way of extra cash to donate to politicians and movements, you might have some new problems, but we wouldn’t have the same problems you do now. Congress would have no choice but to serve the economic majority in this country, not just the economic elite.
You have to partner this leveling of the field with Sandra Day O’Connor’s idea to make civics and economics education on par with English and Math, PreK-12. With age appropriate material, so that we can ween the stupid out of the stakeholders, so we don’t just have equity of access, but a higher quality of discourse and legislation.
It’s also about getting some candidates that aren’t white, rich, stereotypical politicians. Changing the relationship between money and government is just common sense. The founders didn’t have TV ad buys. I like how Obama raised money, but most pols don’t have the charisma, (nor should they have to have it), to not spend too much of there time raising money when they should be learning/legislating.
March 14, 2009 at 12:23 am
Bob Dole used to fly around on Ernst and Julio Gallo’s jet, (no wine before it’s time), they wanted the Inheritance Tax as an issue, so they gussied it up with, the name Death Tax, (Frank Luntz). Bing bang, boom. This is still not an issue that has proven effective for the GOP. Most voters don’t have a Trust to manage. It feeds into the larger anti-tax narrative, but the Huckabee voter, for example, doesn’t care.
March 14, 2009 at 12:30 am
Breitbart is getting fucked up by Michael Eric Dyson and Bill Maher on Maher’s show tonight. I don’t read The Drudge Report, I never heard of this moron. This is a good week for “shut the fuck up” Journalism.*
* patent pending.
March 14, 2009 at 1:28 am
Diamond is one of my favorites- he really breaks down the factors in (excuse me) societal breakdowns. I’m worried he’ll come into some undeserved condemnation for this interview however, as there’s no shortage of people who will willfully take his comments apropos wishing for the rich to suffer, out of context.
March 14, 2009 at 1:43 am
And also because fuck them.
This is a good week for “shut the fuck up” Journalism.
I don’t have to tell you things are bad. Everybody knows things are bad. It’s a depression. Everybody’s out of work or scared of losing their job. The dollar buys a nickel’s worth, banks are going bust, Obama haters keep a gun in the drawer. Wall street assholes are running wild in the street and there’s nobody anywhere who seems to know what to do, and there’s no end to it. We know the air is unfit to breathe and our food is unfit to eat, and we sit watching our TV’s while some local newscaster tells us that today we had Bernie Madoff asking to be set free on bail and Alan Stanford running around free, as if that’s the way it’s supposed to be. We know things are bad – worse than bad. They’re crazy. It’s like everything everywhere is going crazy, so we don’t go out anymore. We sit in the house, and slowly the world we are living in is getting smaller, and all we say is, ‘Please, at least leave us alone in our living rooms. Let me have my toaster and my TV and my 401K and I won’t say anything. Just leave us alone.’ Well, I’m not gonna leave you alone. I want you to get mad! I don’t want you to protest. I don’t want you to riot – I don’t want you to write to your congressman because I wouldn’t know what to tell you to write. I don’t know what to do about the depression and the 401Ks going to shit and the Cramers and the fucking institutional ponzi schemes. All I know is that first you’ve got to get mad.
You’ve got to say, ‘I’m a HUMAN BEING, Goddamnit! My life has VALUE!’ So I want you to get up now. I want all of you to get up out of your chairs. I want you to get up right now and go to the window. Open it, and stick your head out, and yell, “FUCK YOU!’ I want you to get up right now, sit up, go to your windows, open them and stick your head out and yell – ‘Shut the fuck up!’ Things have got to change. But first, you’ve gotta get mad!… You’ve got to say, ‘Fuck you, and shut the fuck up!’ Then we’ll figure out what to do about the depression and the ponzi schemes and the right wing assholes. But first get up out of your chairs, open the window, stick your head out, and yell, and say it: “FUCK YOU, AND SHUT THE FUCK UP!”
March 14, 2009 at 5:35 am
‘Guns, Germs and Steel’ should be required reading. The film documentary should be as well, but only if you have a strong stomach. As far as the uber rich goes, until someone gives me a reason why I should care about people who don’t give a damn if people have food on their table, I’ll always be on the side that says ‘Fuck them’.
March 14, 2009 at 6:22 am
commie atheist:
Well, as Yoda might say, “Of Liberal Fascism the Treaty of Versailles the polarization of national debate is.”
Apparently in these trying times, people still speak of some ideas as if they’re speaking of the Great Satan. Polarization — AAARGH!!! Nationalization — AAARGH!!!
Time to break a few taboos. Wait, make that lots of</i> taboos.
– bi
March 14, 2009 at 6:23 am
(oops, bad formatting, please fix… thanks)
March 14, 2009 at 9:01 am
commie atheist–
Can I at least keep my steel-belted radials?
March 14, 2009 at 10:50 am
‘Guns, Germs and Steel’ should be required reading
I second that enthusiastically.
March 14, 2009 at 12:15 pm
GGS fans should also check out “The Upside of Down”. It’s a easier read than the book it’s based on, “The Collapse of Complex Societies,” which is a classic, but kind of a slog.
Also, “Dirt: The Erosion of Civilizations” by David Montgomery is really really great. Full of little surprises and whatnot. No kidding. It’s a page-turner.
March 14, 2009 at 12:22 pm
Can I at least keep my steel-belted radials?
Do they still make those?
March 14, 2009 at 5:24 pm
Cable television must die… and it just might. It just needs a good push. (e.g. Comcast is bleeding money.)
I’ve been cable free for three months now. The first three weeks were hell, but soon I began to feel sick just imagining the sound of Chris Matthews’s voice, or David Gregory’s, and especially Larry Kudlow and the Ayn Rand blow-up dolls on CNBC.
And you know what? The Daily Show actually retains its freshness overnight. And I save almost $100 a month!
March 14, 2009 at 10:30 pm
I get it.
You and curv3ball want to make a baby.
The path is clear.
Gay love will make a baby that has both the eloquence and the raw thrust that is required of a leader. bORN into the fold that we wish.
I release the baby-bourne avenue of research to you. Good luck!
I dunno; happy, un-happy. You two have a bun in the oven… Go for it!
What will you name it?
March 14, 2009 at 10:59 pm
Here, here! Three cheers for class warfare!! Eat the rich!!!
I tell you what – grilled millionaire is more filling than roasted unemployee.
Any time. Any day.
March 14, 2009 at 11:02 pm
New project from Tim “Herb” Alexander, Primus drummer.
http://www.myspace.com/intothepresence
March 14, 2009 at 11:17 pm
“This is still not an issue that has proven effective for the GOP. Most voters don’t have a Trust to manage.”
What do you mean this is not an effective issue for the GOP. The Estate tax is almost phased out. Next year it will be phased out and then it will reappear. But the IRS has been laying off its enforcement staff for this tax, so effectively there is no tax. And there will be a battle royale if the temporary Bush tax cuts are not made permanent. And every indication is that Obama and the Dems will roll over for that one.
March 14, 2009 at 11:56 pm
God, how I’ve missed you.
March 15, 2009 at 12:52 am
Thank you, thank you, thank you for posting this.
Jared Diamond is wise.
And yes, fuck them.
March 15, 2009 at 1:03 am
The Will Ferrell: George W. Bush one-man Broadway show also on HBO, fucking hilarious. OMFG! Ferrell’s impression of Bush was always the best.
Brian: Remember when there was only one set of footprints in the sand? The Editors were riding you that whole time. What do I know, I’m just here to recommend media. Maybe viacom pays me $40,000 to blabber all around the internet at key taste maker sites about synergistic megatastic super rocksplosions? Who fucking care? Brian, you’re not my Dad.
March 15, 2009 at 5:19 am
Extremely insightful +5.
I’ve often wondered why it is that some people talk about “class warfare” as if it’s a bad thing.
I figure that the class warfare started in Reagan’s first term and we’re just now deciding to respond to the upper class’ economic terrorism.
March 15, 2009 at 5:34 am
OMG, you said “because fuck them.” Now you’re a hate site, just like that Daily Kos guy.
March 15, 2009 at 6:21 am
Somehow it’s always reasonable to hurt the poor as a way to make them shape up. Tougher bankruptcy laws, welfare reform, it’s all good social engineering.
But if you talk about hurting the rich to make them reform, it’s terrible. Taking money away from a guy with plenty more to spare is worse then taking money away from a person with none left.
You know, in the Aztec Empire, if you were a peasant convicted of public drunkenness, they’d shave your head to show people you’re an ass. If you were a noble convicted of public drunkenness, they’d just kill you, because they thought that people who were accorded great power and respect should behave themselves in a way befitting their station.
Here in America we’ve hit the point where the rich deserve to be rich because they are rich. They don’t have to be useful or polite or interesting or classy.
It bugs me.
March 15, 2009 at 6:44 am
Instead of the death tax being a way to raise money, why not let the death tax be THE IMPOSITION OF DEATH ITSELF. Because fuck them.
March 15, 2009 at 10:26 am
well, you know the old saying…
democrats preach class warefare…
republicans practice it.
March 15, 2009 at 10:45 am
dude, you cannot tax the really rich – they will just move their money into some foreign trust fund, so you are left with still no taxes and now no investments in the economy. you want to fuck them, you end up fucking yourself.
March 15, 2009 at 11:32 am
Think about the rich kids in public life: John Kerry, Ted Kennedy, John Edwards, Al Gore, Jan Harmon,etc. Dumb, angry, entitled, douchebags.
March 15, 2009 at 1:18 pm
Think about the rich kids in public life: John Kerry, Ted Kennedy, John Edwards, Al Gore, Jan Harmon,etc. Dumb, angry, entitled, douchebags.
Indeed. All you hear from those entitled douchebags is how they should pay less taxes! All they care about is themselves!
March 15, 2009 at 1:28 pm
Cable television must die…
It’s not the cable, it’s the programming. Cheap, sloppy, disposable. And, insult to injury, it’s not even 24/7. Late night and weekends are given over to paid programming, as in customers are paying good money to have 30-minute long commercials piped into their homes instead of having something interesting to tape or TiVo. And you’re right: If you’ve got fast internet connections, you can pretty much bypass the cable companies. One of my new hobbies is loading up my iPod with news and entertainment podcasts and then playing them on the TV. Voila!
March 15, 2009 at 3:28 pm
dude, you cannot tax the really rich – they will just move their money into some foreign trust fund, so you are left with still no taxes and now no investments in the economy. you want to fuck them, you end up fucking yourself.
Which is what happened during that prolonged economic period after World War II when the top marginal tax rates approached 90%
And then again during the depression of the 1990s, after Clinton brought the top rate up to 39% – exactly where Obama plans to return it!
March 15, 2009 at 3:29 pm
Think about the rich kids in public life: John Kerry, Ted Kennedy, John Edwards, Al Gore, Jan [sic] Harmon
Um, John Edwards grew up the son of a mill worker. Rich? Not exactly.
March 15, 2009 at 3:54 pm
I believe our illustrious #43, George Herbert Hoover Bush, is an excellent example of spoiled rich kid.
March 15, 2009 at 6:50 pm
Very funny:
March 15, 2009 at 7:05 pm
they will just move their money into some foreign trust fund,
Money is not wealth. The “rich” could take out their money from the banks and light it on fire; we could just print more to replace it.
Wealth production depends on capital, fixed (machines, infrastructure), human (skills), societal (respect for the law). Those who inherit wealth and live off of interest and rents are social parasites just as much as Octomom — usually 100X worse.
March 15, 2009 at 7:22 pm
Chris Rock:
“There are no wealthy black or brown people in America. We’ve got some rich ones — we don’t got no fuckin’ wealth. People go: Well, what’s the difference? Here’s the difference: Shaq is rich. The white man who signs his check is wealthy. [...] Wealth is something that’s passed down from generation to generation. You can’t get rid of wealth. Rich is something you can lose with a crazy summer with a drug habit. Fuck, Rick James was rich.”
March 15, 2009 at 7:47 pm
^ very nice example of the difference between having money and owning wealth.
It was only after discovering the arguments of Henry George and his followers that I understood the distinctions between capital and money, and that rentierism — parasitically living off of rents — is the root of all economic evil.
March 15, 2009 at 11:04 pm
Netflix will help you leave cable. You can stream a lot of movies right on to your TV. New Releases have a bit of a wait, but they have so many title, tv shows/documentaries/movies. You could be fine.
I watch a lot of crap, the sociologist in me makes me watch I Love Money 2 and stupid shit like that, from Viacom, because it’s ironically hilarious. Rob Dyrdek is pretty funny. I watch pretty much anything on HBO, I still like boxing, and I watch all there shows, (available by other sources, I know.) I watch the NBA, and NFL in HD, I watch Cartoon Network shows like The Clone Wars, and I watch Adult Swim, I watch Wolverine and The X-Men. I watch PBS a lot, C-Span a lot. I watch TDS/Colbert. I watch Lost, (I forgot why),Battlestar Gallactica, , Breaking Bad, and Mad Men on AMC. I don’t get Showtime but I rented Weeds. I rented “The Wire” and “Rome”, before I got HBO. Once I get a blu-ray player, maybe I’ll quit cable, me loves HDTV. I also do muti-tasking, so the TV or music is always on, if I’m reading or writing. I don’t watch movies on cable, I rent them from netflix, I’ve seen over 2,685, (I’m not even playing), films since I’ve been in and out of the hospital for the last decade and a half.
March 15, 2009 at 11:08 pm
Raising taxes 4% on 5% of the wealthiest Americans, is not socialism.
Making sure every citizen enjoys their natural rights to life,liberty, and the pursuit of ____, by making that pursuit, and that liberty, possible with health care that saves us money later, is not socialism. You can’t be free and sick.
March 16, 2009 at 1:28 am
Respect to the science channel and Travel HD, (Mark & Olly and the Machingenga), Discovery is OK, History Channel sucks. Animal planet, HDT,Food Network, Bravo, and Nat Geo are OK. I like BBC-America.
March 16, 2009 at 6:58 am
Was watching Mark & Olly last night.
March 16, 2009 at 4:43 pm
i think it is important to make a distinction between people who are arguing against their own interests (e.g. most wealthy leftists/liberals) economically, and those who are just trying to get theirs and fuck everyone else (pretty much all other rich folk).
also, i think there is a useful distinction between those who just have the money handed to them by their parents/families and those who earned it, though there is still the above distinction even here, and it is fair to say that some scions of wealth and power do work hard to become successful on their own merits.
so, having highlighted the “good” rich people out there, let’s talk about the other 98%: fuck them all.
March 17, 2009 at 8:17 pm
[...] over, it would appear, though perhaps some have it tougher than others. Who are we to judge? As Christopher said: Somehow it’s always reasonable to hurt the poor as a way to make them shape up. Tougher [...]
March 19, 2009 at 6:01 am
dude, you cannot tax the really rich – they will just move their money into some foreign trust fund, so you are left with still no taxes and now no investments in the economy.
True enough. That’s why I propose that the rich be kidnapped and put on a deserted island, where they could use their innate rich-person superiority to build an advanced utopian civilization that will come to the rescue of the rest of us. Or they’ll devolve into savages and end up eating each other, either way works for me.
March 19, 2009 at 11:02 pm
[...] Are you on acid? Because they didn’t earn it, maybe? Because if they were working for any other industry where they’d fucked the collective dog to the extent the financial services industry has, they wouldn’t even have a job? Because while 40-odd million Americans have no health care, these folks get $300,000/year plus bennies plus a bonus? Because fuck them? [...]
March 22, 2009 at 5:51 am
Man.
That’s beautiful stuff. Too often golden opportunities are lost for clarifying public discussions about the economy with a reality check on class-privilege issues…opportunities lost because the comeback “because fuck them” is never employed.
It’s like medicine to me to read this…we are not alone, no?
April 10, 2009 at 11:59 am
Liberty ensures that people will have equal protection under the rule of law. It ensures that individuals can do for the most part what they want with the fruits of their own labor. As Abraham Lincoln said “With some the word liberty may mean for each man to do as he pleases with himself, and the product of his labor; while with others, the same word may mean for some men to do as they please with other men, and the product of other men’s labor.” He called the latter tyranny and the former liberty. If someone has become wealthy by committing some crime then by all means, he or she deserves to pay society back. But when no crime has been committed, how can you all say that it would be fair or desirable for a person to be stripped of his or her wealth. Liberty does not ensure equal outcomes. We are created as equal human beings in our inherent worth, but we are not equal in so many ways—the conditions of our birth, our intelligence, our physical aptitude, health, and so on…Even were we to decree that it is evil for some to be rich while others are poor. Who is so sinless and pure in motive that we can entrust with the enormous task of righting society, of redistributing wealth….that path has been tried and it ends in tyranny.
April 27, 2009 at 10:20 am
Mao, Stalin, Castro, and others (Socialists) who demanded equality, killed millions of people to archive their ends.
Risk-takers (AKA Capitalists) produce wealth and jobs.