There’s been a lot of this sort of thing recently:
That clip of Glen Beck sums up everything that is wrong with the violent rhetoric from the right-wing. [...] That’s wrong — and it’s time for it to stop. We need dissent in this country, but there is no room for those who encourage political violence.
The clip in question compares Obama & Co. to “vampires” and suggests that we must “drive a stake through [their] heart[s]” or risk the economy becoming “undead”. Perhaps this was a dog whistle to FVKs, but I suspect he may have been speaking metaphorically. Or else the Secret Service is going to learn how to defend the President from people carrying point’ed sticks.
The proximate cause of this hand-wringing is that some guy killed three cops because of FOX News. The evidence that FOX made him do it was that he was concerned about “the Zionist-controlled government“. I confess I don’t watch a lot of FOX News, but I don’t think that’s one of their talking points. Come to think of it, I think this guy may have had other influences.
Dave Neiwert – who has written extensively and thoughtfully about the connections between right-wing extremist ideas and and mainstream wingerdom – reproduces this quote from Bill Clinton:
In this country we cherish and guard the right of free speech. We know we love it when we put up with people saying things we absolutely deplore. And we must always be willing to defend their right to say things we deplore to the ultimate degree. But we hear so many loud and angry voices in America today whose sole goal seems to be to try to keep some people as paranoid as possible and the rest of us all torn up and upset with each other. They spread hate. They leave the impression that, by their very words, that violence is acceptable. You ought to see — I’m sure you are now seeing the reports of some things that are regularly said over the airwaves in America today.
Well, people like that who want to share our freedoms must know that their bitter words can have consequences and that freedom has endured in this country for more than two centuries because it was coupled with an enormous sense of responsibility on the part of the American people.
If we are to have freedom to speak, freedom to assemble, and, yes, the freedom to bear arms, we must have responsibility as well. And to those of us who do not agree with the purveyors of hatred and division, with the promoters of paranoia, I remind you that we have freedom of speech, too, and we have responsibilities, too. And some of us have not discharged our responsibilities. It is time we all stood up and spoke against that kind of reckless speech and behavior.
If they insist on being irresponsible with our common liberties, then we must be all the more responsible with our liberties. When they talk of hatred, we must stand against them. When they talk of violence, we must stand against them. When they say things that are irresponsible, that may have egregious consequences, we must call them on it. The exercise of their freedom of speech makes our silence all the more unforgivable. So exercise yours, my fellow Americans. Our country, our future, our way of life is at stake.
Which is fine and true, for certain values of “them”, and “things we deplore”, and “people like that”, and “hatred and division” so on. Of course, non of these values are defined, and none of these people are named, which leaves pronouncements like this utterly meaningless. Indeed, there was a time – long ago, in the reckless days of my youth – when I quite literally hated the President of the United States, and said some very divisive things along those lines, possibly involving metaphorical violence, possibly involving the forceable insertion of frozen pineapples into delicate orifices and perhaps breaking into people’s houses and peeing on their pillows and shaving their pets. I seem to recall hearing a lot about “responsible dissent“, and “fever swamps”, and how saying mean things was tantamount to fascism, and I recall thinking that the people saying these things should blow it out their pasty, pockmarked asses. But who can remember, so long ago? The point is, there’s a difference between openly advocating violence and calling people not nice names, or needing to calm the fuck down and stop being such a spaz, or being an idiot, or making shit up, or any of the myriad forms of douchebaggery which are the inevitable result of letting people speak their minds in our infinitely stupid democracy. I’m not saying there’s some invincible firewall between militialand and FOX News – there certainly isn’t – but that doesn’t mean they are the same thing. Being a terrorist and being a crazy loser are distinct modes of being, even if there are occassional overlaps on the reading list. Being vague about this, or purposefully conflating the two, gives cover to the former as it smears the latter.
UPDATE: Obligatory pussy cat-obsessed Krautrock video:
April 8, 2009 at 11:21 pm
Uh oh. They got him.
April 9, 2009 at 12:38 am
The evidence that FOX made him do it was that he was concerned about “the Zionist-controlled government“. I confess I don’t watch a lot of FOX News, but I don’t think that’s one of their talking points.
No, but FEMA concentration camps are, now.
http://www.adl.org/learn/extremism_in_the_news/White_Supremacy/poplawski+report.htm?LEARN_Cat=Extremism&LEARN_SubCat=Extremism_in_the_News
Poplawski bought into the SHTF/TEOTWAKI conspiracy theories hook, line and sinker, even posting a link to Stormfront of a YouTube video featuring talk show host Glenn Beck talking about FEMA camps with Congressman Ron Paul.
The clip they’re talking about is from March. If you were thinking about maybe killing some cops in the near future, what impact do you think it would have on you to hear people discussing your favorite conspiracy theories on national TV?
April 9, 2009 at 6:12 am
Thanks for that The Editors. Digby yesterday was fretting about how we have to ‘keep an eye on Glenn Beck’ as in ‘watch what you say’; and the clip she linked to had nothing more than Beck saying: 1) the left thought Boosh was a fascist 2) the right thinks Obama is a socialist. 3) They’re both right! (first faint denunciation of Boosh I ever heard from him, BTW) 4) Big Brother doesn’t hold all the cards, WE DO! {which is not totally unlike ‘we are the chznge we’ve been waiting for’, or ‘yes, we can’, AAMOF). So, what was the deal? That was one G.B. rant I could largely agree with.
April 9, 2009 at 6:54 am
I don’t know. That wasn’t on my agenda. Hearing that Glenn Beck talked about it with Ron Paul, it still isn’t on my agenda. Is all political discussion now to be held under the assumption that the audience is planning on shooting policemen? If so, I need to talk with Jody Foster about those psychic messages she’s sending me in her movies.
There was a time that being a crazy douchebag was considered a bad thing, whether you could could draw a straight line to an act of terrorism or not. Whatever happened to those days?
April 9, 2009 at 7:11 am
what good is freedom of speech to me? i’m dead now because i listened to black sabbath’s paranoid while thinking about maybe committing suicide.
April 9, 2009 at 7:24 am
Being a terrorist and being a crazy loser are distinct modes of being
Nope. The terrorists are just the ones who know how to keep their mouths shut.
April 9, 2009 at 7:56 am
Why can’t we drop all the acrimony and agree to blame GTA:Vice City? Something about hearing Cutting Crew’s “I Just Died (In Your Arms)” while on a chainsaw rampage is too right to be unplanned.
April 9, 2009 at 8:06 am
Now, toasters, having been a crazy loser, I can assure you that they are really distinct. I have never once used an IED. And for your pleasure, I will also keep my mouth shut.
April 9, 2009 at 9:16 am
I have never once used an IED. And for your pleasure, I will also keep my mouth shut.
No birth control and no oral sex? I liked you better when you were a terrorist.
April 9, 2009 at 11:32 am
What would happen if, heaven forfend, some Olbermann viewer were to decide that one of his daily “Worst Persons in the World” was deserving of a bit more chastisement than just a public scolding? Would the left rush to denounce Olbermann as an enabler of violence? I somehow doubt it.
By all means, keep the spotlight on the Becks and Limbaughs of the world, and insofar as it’s possible, ask them for their opinions on the violence that’s carried out in the name of their common ideology. I got no problem with doing that much.
April 9, 2009 at 12:21 pm
Is all political discussion now to be held under the assumption that the audience is planning on shooting policemen?
Yes, if you have a mass audience it would be…responsible for you to consider the impact that baseless alarmism and conspiracy theorizing might have on unhinged people in that audience. Political discussion isn’t going to suffer very much from people make an effort to stay away from naked conspiracy theories. Anyway the point is that there’s a much clearer connection between the killer and FOX than you suggest in the original post.
April 9, 2009 at 12:35 pm
Anyway the point is that there’s a much clearer connection between the killer and FOX than you suggest in the original post.
Which is?
I ask you sincerely. What is the clearer connection?
April 9, 2009 at 2:53 pm
i’m always bemused by this debate. i guess we are supposed to believe that what glenn beck says during his show is not directly influential–e.g. does not lead to specific acts or attitudes based on what beck says and does. however, the advertisers on glenn beck’s show are paying for short pieces of video that are by their very definition backed by ENORMOUS amounts of research moving people to do a specific act (buy a product) or evoke a specific attitude or feeling.
somehow i think this dichotomy doesn’t make sense, and someone has to be right and someone has to be wrong. now i know for a fact–i’ve seen the research–that advertisers feel that they get value for their money by these expenditures, that people DO WHAT THEY ARE TOLD when it comes to TV, at least enough people to justify the costs of making and buying ad time therefor.
so how come this isn’t true for glenn beck? i put the (curve) ball back in your court.
April 9, 2009 at 3:16 pm
The commercials are specifically tailored to provoke specific reactions among certain groups of people. Glenn Beck’s show is not specifically tailored to make people kill cops; unless he and his producers are just really bad at their jobs. My evidence: The relatively small proportion of Beck’s viewers who are actual cop killers.
This is not to say that GB’s show isn’t tailored to cause a reaction, but to the degree that the Editors is arguing, it isn’t responsible for violence.
April 9, 2009 at 3:23 pm
but then we have a straw-man argument. digby’s piece doesn’t say that glenn beck viewers are automatically cop killers, rather that there is a correlation between hate speech and hate crime (at least it says that subtextually). i would hesitate before making sweeping faux libertarian pronouncements about what glenn beck’s speech does and does not do to the average viewer.
i can say from personal experience that watching fox news exclusively (which is what a majority of FNC viewers, i can’t find the relevant study but i remember seeing it) changes the way one perceives the world generally, leading to both an affect and an effect change. a close relative of mine has shown me directly how much these changes can literally leave a different person in their wake. i love the idea that we are all living in a world of snark and comedic back and forth broadsides between educated non “morans” but i don’t think that’s right. there are a bunch of rubes out there, some on daily kos and a vast majority more watching FNC who are in total thrall to whatever crap they hear.
first they came for my stupid ideas and i said nothing etc.
April 9, 2009 at 3:27 pm
somehow i think this dichotomy doesn’t make sense, and someone has to be right and someone has to be wrong.
That’s a hanging curv3, and I think there’s a way to hit it hard up the middle:
1. Beck’s message isn’t to go kill people, whereas the folks advertising a Big Mac are trying to get you to go buy one. So, that type of intention matters when trying to persuade people. Beck is influential in some ways, but mostly in the ways that he overtly attempts to be influential in.
2. Even where Beck is implicitly inciting violence and murder, most people have strong aversions to killing people – even when the person on the TV says so. On the other hand, most people like Big Macs and thus find suggestions to purchase them to be helpful reminders. So even if Beck is trying to influence people to commit more crimes, it would be harder to do.
So advertising products that people generally desire and implicitly urging violence (if at all, and not just being reckless in rhetoric) should lead to different outcomes.
With the Big Mac being just one product variable that you can switch in and out as per your particular tastes/advertising demographic.
April 9, 2009 at 3:29 pm
Tiger B. Smith, nice.
I humbly present this cool Renaissance video. Annie Haslam is a bit off at first couple of minutes, but she spends the rest of the track randomly shattering glass and piercing eardrums. If you can tolerate this kind of prog (or skip ahead) to the 4:35 mark, she give Christian Vander’s space yodel a run for its money (especially the sustained shriek from 4:55 to 5:08). Amazing.
April 9, 2009 at 5:36 pm
grandlaff – I think I saw Ken in the audience, dancing with my kindergarden teacher.
robert green – I didn’t see the Digby post, so I don’t know. In the past, people have said things which were pretty clear incitements to violence, and you can tell, because there was violence afterwards. Mostly, though, people like Beck seem to be inciting stupid people to have retarded “tea parties” and make retarded YouTube videos and write a billion blog posts about how Obama is an atheist-Islamo-socialist-fascist bully and how they are hording ammo and Magic: The Gathering cards for the coming Homopocolypse. Like always, in other words. This is objectionable because it’s horribly, horribly stupid and crazy, but it’s about as scary as anything the keyboard kommandos ever do.
Which gets to another, less Socratic objection I have to these complaints: it’s bad messaging. Before and after ever “OMG I’m terrified of Glenn Beck’s fatass hillbilly listenership!” post on Kos is a post about how the right wing is retarded and laughable and powerless and pathetic. This is incoherent. Are you scared, or amused? Are you making a horror movie, or a comedy? Like Highlanders, there can be only one, and if the soundtrack is Lloyd Marcus’ Greatest Hits, the choice makes itself.
April 9, 2009 at 6:16 pm
eds–true. i guess you could make a slippery slope argument, or to go to TWO lousy arguments in one: what hitler said in 1923 had different meaning and intent (perhaps) than what he said in 1933. the question of who leads–the mob or the mob-wrangler–is a salient one as well. but i don’t think that post-timothy mcveigh (which to your point happened BEFORE there was a “greater metropolitan area’s best fascist news team!”) you can completely discount beck’s motives or the capabilities of those who listen to him.
not everyone at a hitler rally in 192…8, let’s say, ended up a brown shirt. he only needed .1 percent to be brown shirtly and the rest to be quiet good little idiots.
all of which is over the top. i fall mostly on your side on this–i’m all for laughing at the morans. they deserve it. but i have a strong memory of getting my face beaten to a bloody pulp by a bunch of frat boys when i was 18–there were 5 of them and me one friend–and that leaves me with a strong sense of what a bunch of stupid cowards can do when they are motivated by bad ideas and alcohol.
curveball–you are not wrong in your points, but i don’t think they answer the bigger question about why we in my business always pretend we don’t have influence when it redounds to our benefit but then talk about how influential we are to those from whom we take money.
April 9, 2009 at 6:31 pm
Robert Greenwald–Your post is right after mine, if you were responding to me: I wasn’t responding to Digby’s piece. Curv3ball and The Editors have since made the same points I was trying to make.
“…we don’t have influence when it redounds to our benefit but then talk about how influential we are to those from whom we take money.”
‘Profitability without accountability’ is the easy answer; likely there is a better one.
It isn’t that media don’t have influence, they very much do; it seems to me that the link between propaganda and violence isn’t particularly straight forward.
April 9, 2009 at 8:19 pm
I don’t know. I’ve been waiting for 15 years for some douchebag dittohead to take matters into his own hands, and it hasn’t happened yet. But that’s not to say it won’t. Such things have been known to happen. Was there an analog of FNC and talk radio in 1963 and 1968?
April 10, 2009 at 6:45 am
Mmmmph mmbrrpbmm ffmmrrbl digby mmmph vrr
April 10, 2009 at 6:49 am
What second-h said
April 10, 2009 at 12:40 pm
Well, it may sound incoherent, but I’m not sure that really there can be only one. Why can’t people be both amusing and dangerous? Ridiculous morons could kick my ass if they got the drop on me.
April 10, 2009 at 1:19 pm
Logically, it’s fine – Whitman contained multitudes, Chaka Khan was every woman, etc. Narratively, however, it’s incoherent, esp. when the people you cowering from are trying to ward off socialist vampires with Tea Parties and prayers to St. Ayn.
April 10, 2009 at 1:36 pm
Eds- granted. I would be the ridiculous one, if I was quaking in fear of the “Tea Parties”.
I guess for what Neiwert is saying to make sense, there have to be two separate but linked elements. There has to be a more ridiculous element, and also a more frightening element. And you can always ask how close the link really is.
April 10, 2009 at 1:43 pm
You just had to bring Magic: The Gathering into this! We were having such a nice, almost civilized discussion. If I can get enough mana to summon my Force of Nature you are in so much trouble.
April 10, 2009 at 4:12 pm
Does free will exist? If advertisements really do “literally leave a different person in their wake” then our democracy is based on a scientific falsehood and we should go ahead and put the philosopher kings in charge.
Alcoholics need to find the gutter. Glen Beck should know.
April 10, 2009 at 8:43 pm
Beck/Hannity/O’Reilly is selling “Your country is slipping into Liberal Fascism, fight back”, to people with HS educations and plenty of guns.
At the same time for the 60% of voters who disagree or see through this BS, this is a 24/7 commercial for the contrary.
This is a a shrinking demographic group, white men, not wanting to go out, despite, the reality of the demographics.
I agree you have to be a sociopath in order to kill or injure, devoid of empathy, and a sociopath can adopt any ideology in order to rationalize their actions.
The best thing we can do to fight these retarded opinions is to call them out, and attack via The Daily Show/Colbert the net, etc.
We are winning the arguments, (despite Rasmussen’s unscientific polling), thanks to the degradation of the Conservative message by it’s goons. It took eight years of Bush to get to Obama but reaction often comes before progression.
Also, Barack Obama wants to put your family in a re-education factory is an untrue statement, and I bet on truth, because 30% of the people will always believe in some contrived bullshit.
April 10, 2009 at 8:51 pm
It’s sad because the 30% who only get their news from FOX and radio, might as well be living on another planet then the rest of us. When you have such stark competing views of reality is diminishes, reality.
April 10, 2009 at 8:54 pm
Tiger Rock is something we all can count on.
April 11, 2009 at 12:44 pm
I think Beck and the teabaggers are both stupid and scary, but I wouldn’t know where to draw the line on incitement to violence.
That said, Beck really ought to get a visit from the Secret Service soon.
April 12, 2009 at 3:59 pm
Thoughtful, idealistic kids have been spied upon, harassed and even arrested for peacefully protesting war. Who, besides other DFHs, stood up and defended their free speech rights?
Limbaugh, Beck and others are using their vast influence to advocate sedition while encouraging the hoarding of guns. How is this not treasonous? Am I supposed to respect those who defend this as constitutionally protected?
True, we’ll never prove direct causal linkage when a wingnut goes on a rampage, but does that matter? My sense of justice wants these rightwing creeps to suffer (legally, financially) for what they promote.
April 13, 2009 at 6:42 am
Yeah cuz like, Beck is totally a terrorist symp.
April 13, 2009 at 7:45 am
“It is not depravity that afflicts the human race, so much as a general lack of intelligence.” — Agnes Repplier, American essayist
April 14, 2009 at 10:22 am
My first link to the Wa.Times: Federal agency warns of radicals on right.
The amusing tea party loons in comments. Amusing, that is, until they start buying ammo and fertilizer.
April 14, 2009 at 12:53 pm
Multiple Teabaggings Everywhere…
by Damozel | Yes, it’s tax day! Time for another salute to the Mad Tea Party and its corporate puppeteers. John Amato observes: I’ve been trying to figure out when FOX News actually covered a bona-fide live protest that they didn’t condemn or ridicu…
April 15, 2009 at 1:28 pm
Fearless Vampire Killers is my favorite comedy vampire movie of all time. Sharon Tate was never more lovely.
April 15, 2009 at 7:46 pm
I think the difference between the leftist dissent of the Bush years – some fringe elements of which were vile, insulting, angry, etc. – and the rightist dissent of today is that in today’s case it is being cheerlead by rightist establishment figures of media and politics.
Other than perhaps Cynthia McKinney, there were few leftist politicians who said the kind of irresponsible and inflammatory things that Michelle Bachman says, or Cornyn, or Rick Perry with his “Texas could secede” nonsense.
There were no network talking heads from the left talking about armed insurrection – not even the guest pundits, and here it’s the actual anchors.
Yeah, the leftist protests had the grotesque puppets and effigies of Bush, the signs, etc. Protests will. So you have to allow that. But to have the endorsement of the Republican establishmetn – that’s pretty scarey.