Glenn Greenwald is outraged that President Obama can kill suspected American terrorists along with suspected foreign terrorists and anybody else in the general vicinity:
Remember when many Democrats were horrified (or at least when they purported to be) at the idea that Bush was merely eavesdropping on American citizens without judicial approval? Shouldn’t we be at least as concerned about the President’s being able to assassinate Americans without judicial oversight?
More, later:
Amazingly, the Bush administration’s policy of merely imprisoning foreign nationals (along with a couple of American citizens) without charges — based solely on the President’s claim that they were Terrorists — produced intense controversy for years. That, one will recall, was a grave assault on the Constitution. Shouldn’t Obama’s policy of ordering American citizens assassinated without any due process or checks of any kind — not imprisoned, but killed — produce at least as much controversy?
There are approximately infinity more paragraphs like this, if you are into that sort of thing. Note:
- We’ve actively been doing this as part of the War On Whateveritis since 2002, at least;
- Police in this country can kill a fleeing suspect if “it is necessary to prevent the escape and the officer has probable cause to believe that the suspect poses a significant threat of death or serious physical injury to the officer or others.” This came from the Supreme Court; no involvement from the President is needed; doesn’t matter who issued your passport; and
- In Florida, anybody can kill anybody for any reason, provided the victim is not a blastula. Maybe this is off-topic, but it’s crazy enough to mention.
There exist places in the world, and situations anywhere, where it is not possible to arrest someone who is a declared enemy of the United States working to kill Americans. The choices you have are A) do nothing, or B) kill them. If you don’t pick A, you pick B; if you don’t pick B, you have picked A. It’s not a very satisfying list of options, but life is often unsatisfying. Whether choosing B (or reserving the option to choose B) is more or less awful than illegally wiretapping x thousand or million Americans is a fine topic for debate, but in the second situation there was a legal, fully above-the-board way to do it. Whether choosing B is more evil than imprisoning people without charges is a good question, too; but, again, once you’ve rendered someone harmless by imprisoning them, you’ve got access to a legal system which we consider adequate to handle every other sort of criminal. The difference is the access to civilized recourse, which is the major reason why property values are higher in grimy, overcrowded New York City than in lovely As’craqq, NWFP, Pakistan.
Frankly, I’d be happy to let the President blow up terrorists of all nations if he would agree that any potential “collateral damage” would require a note signed by at least two Popes. I’d be even happier if someone could proffer a convincing argument that, “right” or “wrong”, this policy actually does anything to stop the spread of anti-American terrorist groups, which seem to have proliferated since, well, around about the time we started doing this sort of thing, now that I think of it. But sometimes policy takes you to places where red in tooth and claw is the fashion, so when in Rome and all that. There is a lot of that going around, as we’ve spent the last 8 years getting ourselves balls-deep in some of the most God-forsaken hellholes any god could ever hope to forsake. Reason #2,933 to get the fuck out.
… y cant greenwald reed?
… and so it begins.
February 5, 2010 at 2:08 am
(serious fawning alert) I especially enjoy when you provide straightforward analysis like this. You provide uncommonly good context for your inter/extra-polations.
A small bit of baksheesh:
Preservation
February 5, 2010 at 2:36 am
When examining policy, the first thing to do is try to measure how effective it is and to determine if the unintended consequences outweigh the advantages, you also have to consider that if you have sworn to protect and defend the constitution and the constitution says that once ratified foreign treaties are the law of the land, this question answers its self.
Now accidents do happen, people have car wrecks, and sometimes they really bash their fucking heads in in the shower.I think there are some checks and balances via the Counter-Intel Act and other FISA like instruments such that you get at least an indictment from the Judicial branch and then sometimes a hellfire missile accidently drives up people’s asses in Yeman. Whoopsy-daisy that’s why Plausible deniability was invented, We’ve been offing people since about 1492. In secret, not in secret. In the Library by Professor Plum with the Candlestick. Up and down the South America, actually pick any third world country in general, hell pick any country in general.
Now the corporations act like States as well, because as you know they are people with the right to shoot you in the back of the head when you break your confidentiality contract or blow a whistle on some nasty toxic dumping and dump your body in the ocean. It’s in all of our contracts when we get a cell phone or gas card.
Does it work? Of course not. You can’t assassinate an idea, silly. You can’t assassinate the Mafia or organized crime, and that’s what Al Qaeda is, a mob. Just like the highly technical Gangs in the Americas. If you do kill someone, it has to be Jeffe, or someone who actually makes a technical difference in the operation of their crime. This is about detective work, and there is no real advantage to undermine the thesis by which our founding documents are predicated concerning the rights of man, it only proves the argument of the opponents, the fascists who claim that democracy cannot work. It can if there is a system in place where a Judge looks at the evidence and the executive branch executes the law, with the Leaders in Congress with over-site, granted a briefing. Then you can kill the bad guy. It happens all the time. You don’t want to make it a habit, otherwise don’t have laws, don’t have a constitution. If there is no rule of law, then we contradict ourselves.
And if an officer discharges his weapon, hell if he pulls his weapon and there are any civilians around, he may be able to do it, but my Uncle Billy was Police Detective for 35 years in Yonkers, and he says, “it’s not really a good idea, and hardly ever done, because you’re more likely to miss the bad guy, have a ricochet.”
February 5, 2010 at 2:37 am
Or the Comorra of Naples, is another great example of what Al Q is.
February 5, 2010 at 5:38 am
Some may parallel this to vivisection or factory farming. There are lots of great books on ethics in administration and this is one of those classic ethical dilemmas, but the first thing, even before efficacy or utilitarianism, they account for, is legality.
February 5, 2010 at 6:43 am
Also, I think it’s self-evident that certain rights are inalienable, otherwise your rights are inherently as frivolous, or not, as any other person, like PepsiCo. and are therefor guaranteed the eventual and sudden and/or gradual alienation from your rights. democracy is only good as the participation rate, the ultimate enforcer, legislator, and judiciary is the people in sufficient number, because that moves the policy makers and law enforcers.
That’s why Australia is Xanadu, 100% voter turnout. Voting is only part of civic duty, evidently. It’s whole job, citizenship. Sometimes you have to be a dick.
February 5, 2010 at 6:48 pm
I’m in Australia. Voting is compulsory. I think that’s good in our system because it’s preferential voting. You can vote Green 1, then Labor, then Liberal. If Labor doesn’t get 51% in the first round, then your Green vote goes to Labor in the second round until someone has 51%. So that means your vote counts and you have more choice than in America where it’s a choice between corrupt Right and corrupt Center-Right, which isn’t much choice.
February 5, 2010 at 6:54 pm
I love Australia’s voter turnout program, I really do, but is Australia governed better then the US?Do you make better policy option selections? I don’t honestly know, I haven’t studied it, but I will now….
February 8, 2010 at 12:49 am
Yes, Australia is better run. We have a good health care system. I never think about it! Better social security too.
We are a bit too influenced by America, but it’s not a big deal apart from involvement with the Iraq and Afghanistan wars.
February 8, 2010 at 6:59 pm
I would tend to think the the interests of the many don’t serve the interests of the few, at the very least in ‘tralia.
February 5, 2010 at 5:08 am
It begins when dipshits incompetents find themselves elected President. They fake their way through until one day, on return from six weeks of vacation, they find terrorists are flying planes into buildings and everyone is mad as hell and their only hope is to suddenly starting acting like they were President Dirty Harry all along.
Then they suddenly find that all the people who spent 200 years building constitutional, legal, and ethical frameworks to guide their action were just a bunch of egghead pencil-pushers from city hall.
And, although no-one could predict this, when they do cross that line into “direct action” with no legal basis, they find it’s a damn short distance between assassinating foreign bad guys to assassinating American citizens; from water-boarding known terrorists to arguing before congress that you have the right to crush the testicles of the child of a suspected terrorist; from disingenuously asserting that America does not torture to your party openly calling for more use of torture.
Crossing the line to extra-legal action doesn’t just take you to a shadowy place. It takes you into the abyss.
And you’re not coming back. No-one ever comes back.
February 5, 2010 at 5:48 am
Yes and the John Yoo’s of the world will always be available to manufacture legal rationalizations. A 7th grader could listen to Yoo on Booknotes discuss the constitution and US history and know that this guy is talking about some other planet or alternate dimension that he and only Clarence John Roberts Scalito can perceive, but he’s not talking about this US or this US Constitution, couldn’t possibly be.
It’s been said that Judges make a decision and then work backwards to account for it. That practice is the opposite of the role of the judiciary in a democratic republic.
Which is fine, but then don’t tell everyone that we’re a democracy, if we aren’t, if we really can’t handle it, put the Fortune 500 in charge or something, might as well after CU v. FEC. But don’t pussyfoot around and claim democracy when we’re fronting.
The Pentagon seems to get what ever they want, they build everything in 45 States and the CIA and all the ancillary agencies have secret budgets, it’s none of our business. So set up a nice Monarchy or something and Barack can be Queen because that’s how he’s acting anyway.
*ahhh sssssnap* Meow.
February 5, 2010 at 8:06 am
It would be nice if Obamadmin gave John Yoo more than an affectionate wrist slap.
February 5, 2010 at 6:33 pm
Great comment Ken Power!
Time to improve the education system, I think.
I’m amazed that people didn’t see Bush’s rank incompetence, and, instead, fell for his overcompensating tough guy security narrative, which is obviously counterproductive.
The Democrats should be ashamed of themselves for accepting all that for imaginary political safety.
February 5, 2010 at 6:54 am
Look I am all for assassinations of EVEN AMerican citizens, IF there is a list ahead of time of places that ARE CONSIDERED LAWLESS, and thus subject to the ‘extreme sanction’ if there is reason to believe you are doing somethiong BAD there. See Pirates of the Carribbean, 17th century version. But that doesn;t mean there should be no judicial review or nothing. Especially when yopu give any President war powers that allow the sanction effectively anywhere. The reason one COULD use it in lawless places is because it wouyld be impossible to seize/detain the guy with the legal apparatus at that place, there being effectively no such thing. But you also have to demonstrate real cooperation with baddies, not just ‘free speech’ bad mouthing the US, as Glennzilla was complaining about.
Or else, why not just off Noam Chomsky on Harvard Square, Mr. The Editors? Or you?
February 5, 2010 at 6:57 am
And if the Congress or the Judiciary can revise the list, not the President. That is, it can’t apply just anywhere you feel like it.
We have been assassinating people for some time, as the Church report found.
February 5, 2010 at 7:22 am
Glennzilla today
http://www.salon.com/news/terrorism/index.html?story=/opinion/greenwald/2010/02/05/lynch_mobs
February 5, 2010 at 7:30 am
The other instances of authority to use deadly force all include oversight and accountability. Given the secret nature of the presidential authority, it includes neither. What stops this power from being used when it’s convenient (as opposed to necessary)? Nothing. That’s the point.
February 5, 2010 at 6:50 pm
Yes. It’s so corrupt. And ripe for huge abuse later on. It’s surprising that Americans are falling for such a dangerous thing that really has no payoff.
February 5, 2010 at 8:49 am
Didn’t this used to be a sane liberal blog? It now reads like something written by Dick Cheney.
You present a false set of choices (false because you pretend that they are the only choices when they are not) and then make a very Cheney-esque argument: If we can’t (easily) arrest them, we must kill them! And being a suspect is ENOUGH!
Pardon me, but what exactly was it that Democrats were objecting to about the previous administration?
Your fleeing felons argument is also utterly flawed. The police don’t get to simply mow these people down unannounced. They must be trying to flee after having been ordered to stop, or otherwise actively trying to get away from authorities who, based on MUCH MORE THAN MERE SUSPICION, have ordered them to stop. In your bizarro world, a suspected felon walking down the street is subject to summary execution by the first police officer who happens by.
You are justifying utter lawlessness. You are justifying murder. You ought to be ashamed (but as you are now apparently just the other side of the same coin that Republicans spent defending Bush, I know that you aren’t.)
February 5, 2010 at 8:55 am
Didn’t this used to be a sane liberal blog?
Not exactly.
February 5, 2010 at 9:10 am
That’s what happens when you reproduce.
I conservative is a liberal who just got a new baby.
February 5, 2010 at 5:36 pm
I fail to see the humor in your post, Roman Berry, but that’s perhaps because don’t see it either?
February 8, 2010 at 10:46 am
Didn’t this used to be a sane liberal blog?
Well, their God-Emperor turned into just another bloody-handed corporate-owned shill and it broke their brains. No worries, though. They’re much funnier this way.
February 8, 2010 at 12:02 pm
Not you. You’re just as funny as you ever were.
February 5, 2010 at 9:00 am
“red in tooth and claw…”
What?
February 5, 2010 at 9:09 am
Nevermind.
I’m impressed.
February 5, 2010 at 9:12 am
What was stopping this from happening in 2003? (Aside from MIT being in Kendall Square?) What is stopping a policeman from shooting us tomorrow?
Huh. Well, I’d estimate that since the War On Whatever began, our military has intentionally killed at least 10,000 terrorists/militants/whatever. Please cite the 10,000 authorizations from courts or oversight boards for deadly force which were obviously issued without my knowledge. Or how about 2. Extra credit: give me a single example of “accountability”. Take your time.
No, it used to be funny, but now it’s just shrill. You should have asked around.
February 5, 2010 at 11:15 am
Okay I will put my foot in and attempt to answer your rhetorical question:
What was stopping this from happening in 2003? (Aside from MIT being in Kendall Square?) What is stopping a policeman from shooting us tomorrow?
1) Basic decency and
2) Respect for the rule of law.
Now experience shows that under stresses, you can’t count on 1) all the time. But 2) gets weakened by continual encroachments by the ever more powerful state apparatus. In general I would support strategies that strengthen (2) instead of institutions and developments that weaken it.
February 5, 2010 at 1:14 pm
False. Many Presidents and policemen, are, as I suspect you know, neither decent nor respectful of the rule of law, and yet here me and America’s Most Important Intellectual™ stand, looking noticeably not dead. What ultimately constrains people in civilized countries is a credible fear of violent retribution – usually forced imprisonment – as dictated by law. That’s why cops carry around guns instead of columns by Miss Manners, and that’s why prisons have iron bars instead of signs suggesting you think about what your crime means to society, young man. What constrains people in lawless countries is a far less effective, and far more arbitrary and bloody application of the same basic idea.
February 5, 2010 at 1:31 pm
Respect for the rule of law comes about through ‘fear’ of transgressing it. And I agree about lawless countries. I think we basically agree about this.
Unless you just want to be shrillpettyprissyadickhead.
February 5, 2010 at 6:25 pm
Third world prisons are much rougher then ours, much more of a theoretical deterrent, and there are many more AK-47s “deterring” nothing. We have the largest prison population and the most murders. The argument that force equals effective deterrent is fucking retarded.
February 5, 2010 at 6:27 pm
“Respect for the rule of law comes about through ‘fear’ of transgressing it. ”
Evidently not. Otherwise the The Inquisition would have been though of like the Renaissance and not vice versa. You two are two fucking retards. I know because it takes one to know two.
February 5, 2010 at 6:31 pm
I respect the law aka the “Constitution” because I believe it is true, and it’s true because inalienable rights make sense. That’s why I am willing to go to jail or die for the truths that are supposedly self-evident. I’m pretty sure the American Revolutionaries and Martin Luther King, jr. agree. I don’t just live to save my skin. Retards.
February 6, 2010 at 7:41 am
the last witch in England was burned in the 1700′s. The Salem witch trial was late 1600s. The Rennaissance and the Inquisition go hand in hand dude. Gallileo was a Renaissance man.
Or what was Savonarola on about?
The Renaissance was only possible because people still obeyed the outward forms of social conventions, while thinking brand new thoughts about everything else. Indeed, only in the late 19th century and into the 20th were people really serious about breaking up long standing social conventions (pace the French Commune -1850). Marx and Engels had typical bourgeois families.
As did Freud.
February 7, 2010 at 12:22 am
I’ll ask John Lewis why he has that dent in his head and whether all men are created equal or no.
February 5, 2010 at 5:38 pm
It’s not *just* shrill. It’s also pedantic and tinny, and reeks of college educations.
February 5, 2010 at 6:21 pm
“What is stopping a policeman from shooting us tomorrow?”
About a ton of paperwork.
February 6, 2010 at 7:22 am
So then it is ‘fear’ of the consequences of transgression after all isn’t it?
Really I doubt that people obey the law because of some ‘truth value’ in it. Religious truths go farbut not too far in this country’s history. People didn;t die for Mary Baker Eddy, even if they do kill for a fetus.
But you can’t make up an army out of them.
‘Respecting the rule of law’ only seems to work in those countries where you really can’t expect to get away with breaking it. Otherwise not.
It is not some secular humanist love of truth or justice or the American way by which people as a whole, not as a set of individuals, but every day doing ‘what they’re supposed to be doing’, but a certain comfortableness in doing the necessary work of civilization and of not wanting the applecart to get upset. In societies where said car is well and truly upset, you don’t see anything like rule of law — and I very much doubt you can say with a straight face it is because the people in said countries don’t love truth or justice.
February 5, 2010 at 9:49 am
I just took you off my reading list for this post. You’ll say anything in defence of Obama, including justifying murder.
February 5, 2010 at 10:11 am
I doubt we will survive the loss. What, with the reduction in sponsor money and other gilded accoutrements that come along with running a massively successful blogging enterprse.
Please, I beseech you, reconsider. Perhaps if I get The Eds to write an autographed apology? In his very own blood? The blood of a virgin?
February 5, 2010 at 10:13 am
You are a fucking monster. Fuck you. Fuck you. Fuck you. You think you are so fucking smart. I hope some muslim reads your shit and fucks you up good.
February 5, 2010 at 10:32 am
He has, as they say, the gift of the gab
February 5, 2010 at 11:01 am
Now now, that’s some talk comin’ from a Moravian star!
February 5, 2010 at 5:40 pm
He’s also a dancing queen.
February 5, 2010 at 11:07 am
But Mr. The Editors, the problem I think Greenwald as well as myself has is that you are just taking the government’s word for it that these people are terrorists deserving of extra-judicial execution (and possibly whoever happens to be so unlucky as to be standing next to them).
It’s a bit disingenuous to compare that to America. I think there would be an outcry if a cop lit up a wedding party because a purse snatcher didn’t halt when he yelled “Freeze!”
This is what I’ve found disturbing about this blog since 9/11, to be honest– you’re way too accepting that whatever the American government does in the name of fighting terror is good and right and necessary. Civilian casualties? Hey, fuck ‘em. Sucks to be born in Iraq, brah.
What can I say? I came for the nerdy whiteboy NWA humor. I still mourn the loss of your archives every time I ineptly try to explain the rapper->pirate chart.
February 5, 2010 at 1:02 pm
No, that is not the problem. We’ve been doing extra-judicial execution for years. There was no standard of evidence applied to any of the dozens? hundreds? thousands? of people, including American citizens, we’ve already blown up under suspicion of terrorism which won’t still be applied. Please read that sentence, aloud, three times. It is almost true, just glossing over the tiny detail that we’ve also blown up unknown numbers of nearby toddlers and grandmothers, who in all likelihood, were not even suspected of being terrorist masterminds. An American passport does not actually change the equation in any way, except now an elected official has to OK it in addition to a CIA functionary. For reasons I can not begin to understand, this last bit is what Greenwald & friends find uniquely awful.
Now, the real problem here is that we can’t be at war in 4+ countries simultaneously and go about our lives as if we were at peace. You can’t have war and peace at the same time – they are two entirely different and incompatible states. Admittedly, in these days of professional soldiery and Predator drones and secret death lists, we can get pretty damn close, but every now and then we are going to get a few stray drops of blood on our pretty white frocks. If you are in for a penny, you are in for a pound, as they say; or, in this case, if you are in for the Crown Jewels you are in for the Crown Jewels and one slightly piss-stained pair of Union Jack boxer shorts. Nothing fundamental is going to change until we extract ourselves from this fight.
February 5, 2010 at 5:42 pm
“You can’t have war and peace at the same time”
As I was told by a friend when I admonished him that he couldn’t drink&coke himself to death *and* take care of his ailing mother at the same time:
“Just watch me.”
February 5, 2010 at 6:35 pm
And this is why we have to kill all the Indians.
February 5, 2010 at 1:23 pm
Joined the loyal bushies, have you?
I guess the media was right when they said partisanship is evil. Clearly, it’s made a lot of you evil.
February 5, 2010 at 1:40 pm
Where are all you lunatics coming from? I may (and do, in this case) disagree with Mr. The Editors on this case, but this somehow makes him a repub?
What a load of hooey. So you believe his logic is false on this one. Fair enough. But please, get a grip.
February 5, 2010 at 2:00 pm
You said a mouthful for a polymorphonuclear leukocyte stained with Cypro green; and sans a mouth, no less.
February 5, 2010 at 2:51 pm
What do you disagree with?
February 5, 2010 at 5:43 pm
Flattery is the sincerest form of imitation, and perhaps TheEds has inspired a legion of mini-kkers to emulate a wingnut, only this time of leftist plumage?
February 8, 2010 at 10:38 am
Don’t be silly. Gramps is as good a fauxgressive Obot as the next pwoggie.
February 5, 2010 at 2:31 pm
Now that I’ve hacked my way through your rather incoherent screed, you seem to be saying 1) We have already killed numerous innocent people so what’s the big hoohah over a couple bad apple Americans?; 2) They are bad apples so we have to do something about them, and our only course of action is to kill them; and 3) cops are allowed to kill a fleeing suspect (???). The first argument is utterly specious (ever hear that two wrongs don’t make a right) the second uses strawmen arguments so falacious they are absurd on their face (show me those countries where our only options are to kill people) and the third is irrelevant. Moreover, you miss the point of Greenwald’s post, namely that these targets won’t even necessarily be terrorists, they will people the US government CLAIMS are terrorists, which is of course a whole nother ball o wax.
Why can’t The Editors read? One would think that is necessary to be an editor.
February 5, 2010 at 2:41 pm
Um, no. Hint: try reading the words.
February 5, 2010 at 2:53 pm
Hint: try making a little more substantive response.
February 5, 2010 at 3:36 pm
I seem to be doing all the work in this relationship.
February 5, 2010 at 2:57 pm
I believe the Editors is saying that the original sin, the crime that precipitates all others, is the invasion/occupation etc in the first place. Everything else is collateral to the act of war itself. And that is where we should concentrate our efforts. A real shooting war would require lots of cloak and dagger operations. But is this grand exercise in state-buildng by means of state destruction a real, a necessary, a useful, an unavoidable war or not?
February 5, 2010 at 3:34 pm
More or less. If you don’t to call occupying 2 countries and bombing 2 or more others (I’ve honestly lost count) a real “war”, that’s fine, but you’ll have to admit we have a real violent way of being peaceful. I’m just going to call it “war”, my own eccentric definition, if nobody objects. We are nipple-deep in war today, have been for some time, and these facts are not avoidable or negotiable without a time machine.
Now, as part of this “war”, we’ve been blowing up people, yes, including Americans, for many years. I gather Greenwald and friends noticed this a few days ago, and assumed it was Obama’s doing, but it has actually been public policy, and public knowledge (available from the hated MSM, no less!), for most of a decade. That’s fine, I don’t know everything, either. So it’s old news, first of all, but it barely qualified as “news” then. In “war”, as in other, more ephemeral states where the normal process of law does not work, you will kill those deemed worth killing, and you will do this whether they have a social security number or not. This is not “civilized”, but that’s why “civilized” and “war” are different words. And, frankly, offering some kind of blessed “review” if someone does have an American citizenship does not, and can not, bring “war” and “civilized” any closer together. Ask Gen. Sherman if you need clarification on this point.
War is War, in other words. If you don’t like it, you need peace. Easier said than done, but raging 8 years on in when you notice War is being mean to those extra-special Americans is not a form of understanding.
February 5, 2010 at 6:39 pm
I fucking object to the definition of “war” as the War Powers Act is crock of shit. See Daniel Ellsberg v. You.
February 6, 2010 at 7:50 am
Yes, Kleber, but a turd by any other name still smells like shit.
February 8, 2010 at 10:41 am
Look, all he really wants to say is “IT’S ALL BUSH’S FAULT” and then fall back to sleep. It was just a long winded way of doing it.
February 5, 2010 at 5:04 pm
You have meddled with the primal forces of the left blogosphere! And you shall atone!
February 5, 2010 at 5:46 pm
(Grecian chorus voice as filtered through an Elmer Fudd vocoder)
“Be vewwy qwyitt. Be vewwy vewwy qwyitt. We awh twyeeng to make a poynt.”
February 5, 2010 at 6:15 pm
[...] enough for many people — including many Democrats — to march forward overnight and mindlessly proclaim that al-Awlaki is “a declared enemy of the United States working to kill Americans” (if [...]
February 5, 2010 at 7:30 pm
‘I’m with stupid.”
http://www.truthout.org/john-yoo-renews-claim-that-presidents-authority-torture-depends-what-is-necessary56674
February 6, 2010 at 12:44 am
[...] enough for many people — including many Democrats — to march forward overnight and mindlessly proclaim that al-Awlaki is “a declared enemy of the United States working to kill Americans” (if [...]
February 6, 2010 at 2:08 am
I don’t think enough notice has been paid to the sinister nature of “Spook” Blair’s pronouncement. Oh we aren’t going to spill your brains into the quiche while you’re sitting in a sidewalk cafe in Paris. And you won’t be blown away for having dissident views. Do you think your leaders are uncivilized?
“War is War, in other words. If you don’t like it, you need peace. Easier said than done, but raging 8 years on in when you notice War is being mean to those extra-special Americans is not a form of understanding.”
And what a war it is. Maybe soon our own spooks will start whacking fellow citizens here at home without any resort to law at all, as well. All they need is for someone in the Pentagon or the executive branch to sign off on it.
The instruments of terror are clearly in the hands of the extra-judicial team who can sign a death warrant on a fellow countryman. Our problems are consequently much more serious than extricating ourselves from multiple wars. Never mind facing your accuser or hearing the charges read. And the intelligence man, Blair, was smiling as he delivered the message.
February 6, 2010 at 2:21 am
[...] enough for many people — including many Democrats — to march forward overnight and mindlessly proclaim that al-Awlaki is “a declared enemy of the United States working to kill Americans” (if [...]
February 6, 2010 at 4:13 am
You saw this got picked up in the NYT
February 6, 2010 at 7:32 am
Yessiree, the money shot:
For Glenn Greenwald (and, yes, a hypothetical invasion of Brazil probably hits home for a guy who more or less lives there), the line’s already been crossed: “To justify the abridgment or even suspension of the Constitution on the ground of ‘war’ is to advocate serious alterations to our Constitutional framework that are more or less permanent. Several points about that ‘war’ excuse: First, there’s no ‘war exception’ in the Constitution. Even with real wars — i.e., those involving combat between opposing armies — the Constitution actually continues to constrain what government officials can do, most stringently as it concerns U.S. citizens. Second, strictly speaking, we’re not really ‘at war,’ as Congress has merely authorized the use of military force but has not formally or Constitutionally declared war.”
It’s a valid point, but as long as Yglesias’s picture holds — as long as the generals aren’t disobeying, the troops are still supported, Congress isn’t checking a thing and we remain in thrall to the “inherent tension between the ideas of political liberty and republican government and the idea of a large, permanent national security apparatus” — not much is going to happen to water down the imperial presidency.
cloak and dagger is with us whenever there is nation state power politics.
It’s keeping a rein on this shit that is problematical. The framers didn;t expect there to be a permanent standing army, either.
February 6, 2010 at 7:34 am
Iu’ve been quoted by the NYT. In their Op_Ed puddle. I feel your pain.
February 6, 2010 at 7:45 am
(seriousness alert) I think all this nonsense derives not from innate design flaws/biases in our Constitution or even our National Character (imagine Robert DeNiro imitating Jerry Lewis) but to an essential human characteristic that I was told Winston Churchill described thusly (if paraphrased: “People prefer to focus on what seem urgent rather than what is necessary.”
Or, we’re more irrational than rational, and so tabloid politics, allied with comic book seriousness, dominate.
February 6, 2010 at 11:04 am
[...] enough for many people — including many Democrats — to march forward overnight and mindlessly proclaim that al-Awlaki is “a declared enemy of the United States working to kill Americans” (if [...]
February 6, 2010 at 12:56 pm
[...] enough for many people — including many Democrats — to march forward overnight and mindlessly proclaim that al-Awlaki is "a declared enemy of the United States working to kill Americans" (if [...]
February 6, 2010 at 4:20 pm
I think the police should just shoot every fleeing suspect and claim it was because they would cause harm elsewhere.
Why bother with arresting people? Sometimes that’s just not possible when the suspects run too fast. The world is a messy place. Lets just accept that law and order is a pre 9/11 mentality and skip straight to the executions.
February 7, 2010 at 3:21 am
It’s awesome that when you google “bullshit”, this pops right up. It’s so convenient like your rationalization gymkata.You’re like a fifth degree mauve belt.
February 7, 2010 at 7:03 am
[...] enough for many people — including many Democrats — to march forward overnight and mindlessly proclaim that al-Awlaki is “a declared enemy of the United States working to kill Americans” (if [...]
February 7, 2010 at 12:02 pm
[...] enough for many people — including many Democrats — to march forward overnight and mindlessly proclaim that al-Awlaki is “a declared enemy of the United States working to kill Americans” (if [...]
February 7, 2010 at 1:41 pm
[...] enough for many people — including many Democrats — to march forward overnight and mindlessly proclaim that al-Awlaki is “a declared enemy of the United States working to kill Americans” (if [...]
February 7, 2010 at 2:42 pm
I think the police should just shoot every fleeing suspect and claim it was because they would cause harm elsewhere.
Hey. That’s why “throwdown guns” were invented.
February 8, 2010 at 12:25 pm
I have just spent 20 minutes reading all of the above and frankly, all of you are nuts!
No one seems to understand that “War” is messy, people die and, yes, there ARE people who are Americans by brunt of birth, but who hate this country just because…..and who want to destroy it. If those innocents who die in a drone bombing had a choice, they would most likly NOT WANT an Al Quida cell next to their house…..assuming they even know the next door neighbors ARE Terrorists…….And MY definiation of a terrorist is anyone out of uniform who wants to kill me or my neighbors because they don’t like my religion, or lack thereof. And if al-Alwaki is advising, via the internet, how to kill Americans, he’s a terrorist,inspite of the objections to that lable that I have read here. This country is under attack even if some don’t wish to acknowledge it…..And the specis argument that our killing of terrorists creates other terrorists is short sighted. It may be seemingly true,in the short term, but in the log run, equealy, our doing nothing only enboldens those who want us dead to just keep trying. About the only thing some people understand, no matter how fanatic they may be, is power. In the VERY long run we have two choices……hand over the country or die…..Me….I’ll go down fighting. No religious fanatic is going to cut my head off without a fight!
February 8, 2010 at 6:52 pm
Tom, you fucking retard, you’ve just described the KKK, go fight them.
February 9, 2010 at 5:10 pm
By your “definiation” then, the sole difference ‘twixt a person who bombs in the name of your magic friend and a person who bombs in the name of a different magic friend is a uniform.
February 8, 2010 at 1:34 pm
What in fuck’s are you blathering about?
In all seriousness though, I think someone didn’t get their diaper changed today.
February 10, 2010 at 9:14 pm
[...] enough for many people — including many Democrats — to march forward overnight and mindlessly proclaim that al-Awlaki is “a declared enemy of the United States working to kill Americans” (if [...]