I’ve been thinking: you know, the prospects for more and better liberal policies would be faring much better today if the health care legislation had been defeated and, instead of the positive momentum and narrative of victory, there was wall-to-wall media coverage of Republicans gloating, tea partiers partying and a raft of stories about some or all of the following: (1) how the Democrats tacked too far left, and must return to the center; (2) how Obama’s administration was a failure; and (3) how bad the Dems would get slaughtered in November, and Obama in 2012, etc.
My guess is that the conclusion drawn from that would be that all Democratic legislators, and some Republcans, better hurry up and work together to pass a public option. Stat. And that, in general, Republicans better start cooperating with that loser Obama.
Also, this would not have happened – which would have only heightened the contradictions to infinity paving the way for a complete liberal overhaul of America. As always, big legislative defeats make you stronger and convince the voting public of your worth:
Ending one of the fiercest lobbying fights in Washington, Congress voted Thursday to force commercial banks out of the federal student loan market, cutting off billions of dollars in profits in a sweeping restructuring of financial-aid programs and redirecting most of the money to new education initiatives…..Since the bank-based loan program began in 1965, commercial banks like Sallie Mae and Nelnet have received guaranteed federal subsidies to lend money to students, with the government assuming nearly all the risk. Democrats have long denounced the program, saying it fattened the bottom line for banks at the expense of students and taxpayers.
This is, to coin a phrase, sort of a big effin deal. The student loan program has been a disgrace for a long time, essentially insuring a fat stream of profits to banks by allowing them to make risk-free loans thanks to guarantees from Uncle Sam. It was a pretty nice racket while it lasted. Republicans, of course, denounced the end of this gravy train, demonstrating once again, as Bruce Bartlett said a few years ago, that they are ”incapable of telling the difference between being pro-business and being for the free market.”
Bottom line: if the taxpayer are taking the risk, then the taxpayers ought to get the profit too. Now they do, and it’s going to be used to expand access to college for low and middle income students. It’s a reform that’s long overdue.
Kevin Drum even said “effin.”
March 26, 2010 at 12:05 pm
We all agree about the practical political necessity, even if we disagreed about the value of the bill-in-itself (das Aktien-an-sich ). Well most of us.
So, what is your point? Doing a snoopy dance and chanting: ‘In your face, Hamsher! USA! USA! USA!’, or what?
March 26, 2010 at 12:27 pm
I thought there were no hyphenated words in German.
March 26, 2010 at 12:33 pm
Less Snoopy dance, more: next time please reconsider how destructive your actions could be if, in fact, you do succeed. And not only reconsider, but abstain. Hell, not only abstain, but push in the right direction.
Victories make it easier for more progressive policies to be enacted. Defeats, less so. The Dems are stronger now than they would have been. More progressive policies have a better chance now than they would have. Student loan reform was unmitigated WIN in its own right.
There is a greater chance that this bill will get improved than the chance that single payer would be passed had the bill been defeated.
So, not in your face, just a teaching moment. But since I’m a fallible human, there’s a bit of bite to it.
But after dealing with the self-righteous chest thumping ad nauseum, well, I’ll stake a claim to one little neener.
March 26, 2010 at 1:43 pm
“But since I’m a fallible human, there’s a bit of bite to it.”
I don’t believe it! I mean, I knew you have teeth, but… human! Say it isn’t so!
March 26, 2010 at 4:49 pm
Isn’t there some value to people attacking from the left just as long as we ultimately win?
March 29, 2010 at 7:08 am
As long as they ultimately win being the key point.
Kucinich attacked plenty from the Left, and then, when the moment of truth arrived, he voted for it.
Perfect.
However, attacking the bill from the left by coordinating with Grover Norquist and the Tea Party movement, and trashing liberal pols like Lynn Woolsey and threatening to primary anyone who votes for the bill…that is somewhat less helpful.
March 30, 2010 at 6:37 pm
So passing a bill written by and for the insurance industry was a master plan to eventually be able to get the insurance industry out of health care? Very Musashi. No, we have to work to change the structural underpinnings in politics that support capitalism. As long as Democrats pander to the profits of Wall Street it is not an opposition party. We shouldn’t just shut up, ‘abstain’, and play along and be good party loyalists. They had the political will and the mandate to include some semblance of at least a public option, but they lied and said the political will didn’t exist, all the while cutting deals with insurance, big Pharm and for-profit hospital lobbyists to leave the public option out. Let’s see how strong the Democrats are when Romney Care kicks in and elderly policy holders can be charged triple the normal premium and people who fail ‘Wellness’ Programs can be charged double, not to mention what other premium hike loopholes were intentionally left open.
March 26, 2010 at 12:08 pm
And yes getting rid of the bankster middle-man is a big effin deal.
Now if we can only get medical marijuana to be NOT constantly oppressed by DEA agents in states with med marijuana laws …
March 27, 2010 at 5:28 pm
Or even legalized outright…
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/26/us/26pot.html
Although perversely and yet predicatbly there’s this:
http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2010/03/california-marijuana-dealers-against-legal-pot/38113/
Marijuana legalization: the answer to the question, “Can’t we all just get along.”
March 26, 2010 at 12:26 pm
Wait…did he say “effin’” or did he actually say “effin’”?
March 26, 2010 at 9:39 pm
I think he meant “eefin’.”
0:49
March 26, 2010 at 10:19 pm
That is bloody unfair. Sneak in a cuteness win like that without us properly voting it cutest ever.
I deem it cutestest!
March 26, 2010 at 12:40 pm
Oh great. Just great. Now the banks are going to have to change the interest paid on savings accounts from 0.1% to -0.1% to make up the difference. And it will all be because of liberal overreach!
March 26, 2010 at 2:03 pm
The problem is that a conservative victory would not lead to a liberalization of American politics. When defeated, Republicans become reactionary. When defeated Democrats try to become more like the ones that defeated them. This habit is much of the reason for a political shift to the right over the last two and a half decades.
The truth is that Democrats, while usually right, or at least less wrong that Republicans, lack the strength of their convictions whereas Repubs just have very, very hard heads.
March 27, 2010 at 6:47 pm
Sorry for not agreeing with this MUCH sooner. Thomas has this one VERY, VERY right. And with a minimum of verbiage at that.
March 26, 2010 at 2:41 pm
While it’s always a treat to see
the republicans in a lather; the snoopy dance is really not in order for a bill that entrenches the insurance companies. The decision was made to cut a path for Big Pharma before this whole charade went down, and to throw away with both hands any chance to bargain down drug prices or allow importation from Canada.
It’s health insurance at a prohibitive cost: a crappy product from corrupt and greedy corporations served with a soupcon of hypocrisy, and mandated for your protection.
This bill is celebrated as a democratic win but is, in reality, a mediocre hodgepodge of safe republican ideas. Americans can easily see who is holding the cards and dealing from a stacked deck.
The republicans will filibuster any tweaking of this bill between now and the presidential election in 2012. It’s rather callous and politically expedient that the systemic changes don’t go into effect until 2014; and after the immediate euphoria wears off and the backslapping is done it may not be so easy to convince the public that their lot has been improved.
Now it’s party time, time to forget the sellouts, the squalid backroom brokering, the wink and nod to Lieberman, the secret handshakes with the corporations, the killing of the public option. “The business of America is business”. Calvin Coolidge nailed it.
March 26, 2010 at 2:59 pm
It’s rather callous and politically expedient that the systemic changes don’t go into effect until 2014
Yeah, other than the changes that take place in the next 6 months. Forgot those.
And the student loan fix. Which doesn’t have to wait.
And yeah, if this was defeated, we’d prolly be a lot closer to single payer.
March 26, 2010 at 3:07 pm
The parts that don’t go into effect til 2014, are the parts where uninsured millions of American get access to health care. The fix here and there you refer to is the treacle, that helps wash down the bitter gall.
March 26, 2010 at 3:46 pm
You know, and for the record: the millions of uninsured Americans have nothing to bitch about that they might have to wait 4 years to get tax-subsidized health insurance anymore than they have right to bitch that they didn’t get it, oh, 16 years ago, when Clenis and Hildabitch tried.
Personally, I think they should’ve invented an elixir of mortality long before (insert favorite important person dead from natural causes) long ago!
*ahem* “I know not course others may take but as for me, give me immortality or give me death!”
Firesign Theater, eponymous
And as always:
Fly the Goddess!
March 26, 2010 at 4:41 pm
I should love to see the Republicans called to actually bust their filis.
March 29, 2010 at 7:18 am
The parts that don’t go into effect til 2014, are the parts where uninsured millions of American get access to health care.
Right. Except for the ban on denying children with pre-existing conditions, which takes hold immediately. Those kids with pre-existing conditions that can’t presently get insurance actually count as uninsured Americans. Last time I checked at least.
Oh, and let’s not forget that children can now stay on their parents’ insurance until their 27. That goes into effect immediately. So, some uninsured 18-26 year olds will now have insurance. Americans at that.
Almost forgot, those Americans with illnesses that have reached their annual or lifetime caps with their current insurer will not have to worry, as such caps are now outlawed. So those Americans will have insurance again for those ailments. Now.
And right now, American adults with pre-existing conditions can buy-in to high risk pools. Not free, nor cheap, but it will save money for some Americans, as it is still better than the status quo ante. Takes effect now.
Oh, and let’s not forget all the money for free preventive care and community health centers – that get funded now. Preventive care is free in many locales, and community health centers charge on a sliding scale according to means. That helps uninsured Americans. Now.
One more thing, the donut hole closes for seniors and their prescription drug coverage under Medicare. So that’s a lot of seniors (American) that will have insurance coverage for necessary drugs. Now.
But other than that, yeah.
March 27, 2010 at 5:57 pm
Copeland has valid points here. Celebrate this victory while you can, but don’t think for a minute that this is over with.
Your opponents have more money than you, and thus, a hell of a lot more invested in the outcome. I wouldn’t be surpised if HCR budgetary ramifications aren’t the cornerstone of the 2010 and 2012 elections, and in that case, the GOP has a lot of leverage, justified or not.
Fear of budget deficits, (obtuse and complicated) and thus massive tax increases, trumps healthcare for the poor and indigent (fairly simple), no matter how deserving the recipients, every time. Especially once the populace wakes up to the fact that we’re essentially bankrupt.
Me thinks you guys entirely underestimate the amount of ethnicism and racism that still goes on in this country, especially absent less than perfect economic conditions.
Believe me, when the next economic downturn comes (and it’s coming sooner rather than later), even this modest level of “outreach” to the poor will get kicked to the curb without a second thought. Unfortunately, its after effects will likely be even more profound, as such things usually are. Dominoes – nuff said!
March 29, 2010 at 7:18 am
Copeland has valid points here. Celebrate this victory while you can, but don’t think for a minute that this is over with.
Yeah, my whole point is that it is definitely NOT over. This is just the beginning.
March 26, 2010 at 4:55 pm
Kevin Drum even said “effin.”
I’m sure he mean “elfin”.
Less Snoopy dance, more: next time please reconsider how destructive your actions could be if, in fact, you do succeed. And not only reconsider, but abstain. Hell, not only abstain, but push in the right direction.
Optional interpretation: JH, et al, while Really Big Deals On The Internet, have no appreciable political influence. See also: PUMAs, libertarians, people who care what Tom Friedman thinks. To put it more positively: there is a general consensus in the Democratic party – from the rabble through the leadership of groups like the SEIU to the elected officials in Washington – that winning is a better deal than losing. None of this means that the process itself doesn’t feature me wanting to strangle everyone involved and everyone involved trying to give me a heart attack – this is the Democratic party, after all. But that’s why I as little attention as possible to any of it, and just grip n sip.
March 26, 2010 at 6:24 pm
Hard to imagine how that could be better put.
But I might add: A bologna sandwich on white bread ain’t all that bad when conservatives are dining on shit sandwiches with no mayo.
March 26, 2010 at 7:52 pm
I will try (maybe NSFW):
March 26, 2010 at 11:41 pm
The self-similarity of the wingnut function: http://mediamatters.org/blog/201003260027
March 27, 2010 at 7:14 am
“‘Take up your arms’ means voting.”
– Sarah Palin, quoted by the Odessa American, insisting the media mischaracterized her as inciting violence.
and uh hand is fuh writen un! Listhun to Sayruh! Yu dumb snofabitch, she’s hur to hulp us! Yu dumb assholes.
March 27, 2010 at 8:17 am
This is mah write arm!
Not th’uthah one!
This arms for writing!
This arm’s for FUN!!!!
March 27, 2010 at 8:15 am
Sometimes, rationally cataloging teh folly and teh stupid is as good a drank as we get:
http://edgeoftomorrow.wordpress.com/reports/eot-report-1/
March 27, 2010 at 4:43 pm
Yes, now that the US government has decided they can legally coerce citizens into paying money to corrupt monopolists, progressive ponies are inevitable!
Whee.
March 28, 2010 at 6:39 am
I’ve been sending tax dollars to Raytheon and Halliburton dutifully, loyally, and with great devotion, since my first job.
March 29, 2010 at 7:21 am
Well, they’re also slapping a lot of restrictions on those monopolists. And helping millions of Americans with payments for same.
Which is considerably better than the status quo.
Whee!@!!!!!
March 29, 2010 at 7:25 am
Adding: If this bill were only defeated, then progressive ponies would REALLY be inevitable!
March 29, 2010 at 11:08 am
Pointing out that this bill has some positive aspects does not make it a good bill. It has positives and negatives, and like a lot of other people I think the negatives are enough to make it a shitty bill. I also believe that the meta-considerations are more negative than positive. You see it as a gateway to more progressive legislation; I see it as suicidal affirmation to centrist Democrats that there’s no need to pass laws that are actually progressive. Time will tell which one of us is closer to the truth; your gloating, to those of us who feel differently, simply classifies you in the group of people who care more about “winning” than they do about actually changing the process (what an unfortunate word) of health care in this country.
March 29, 2010 at 12:08 pm
Pointing out that this bill has some positive aspects does not make it a good bill
True. Good thing I never did that.
The problem is that I don’t see the cause/effect of defeating this bill resulting in the progressive wing being empowered. The lesson that would be hammered into legislators’ heads would not be that this bill was defeated because it wasn’t progressive enough. The opposite in fact: the Dems would tack further to the center, as they have in the past. Always.
When Ted Kennedy led the charge to defeat Nixon’s health care reform (which was more liberal than Clinton’s, which itself was more liberal than Obama’s), the end result was not an invigorated progressive movement – nor a belief on the part of centrists that they must appease the left on healthcare, or anything else for that matter.
That’s why Clinton’s plan was further center. And after it was defeated, Obama’s plan was further center than that.
I don’t think a defeat in 2010 would have broken with that pattern.
your gloating, to those of us who feel differently, simply classifies you in the group of people who care more about “winning” than they do about actually changing the process (what an unfortunate word) of health care in this country
Gloating? Not at all.
I was making a point that progressive causes have a better chance now – that if this bill were defeated, Obama would be in bad shape, the Dems would be reeling and the media narrative would be overwhelmingly negative. This would hurt the Democratic Party, and result in more power to Republicans and centrist Dems that act like Republicans.
That’s not gloating. That’s observing a basic truth. And the goal, my goal, is not “winning” (whatever that means) but making positive change. But I do know this, if Dems don’t “win” at the ballot box, the Republicans sure as hell won’t be providing any of the positive change in terms of changing health care process.
And if this bill was defeated, health care reform would be shelved for a decade or two – put off as another “third rail” that can’t be passed because you’ll never please all sides.
Which would be awesome.
March 29, 2010 at 7:31 pm
True. Good thing I never did that.
I’m not trying to argue semantics. OK, I’ll rephrase:
“That a bill has some positive aspects does not make it a bill that should be passed and enacted into law”
Gloating? Not at all.
More semantics? Of course you’re gloating. You’re not gloating to me, particularly, but you’re gloating in general because you are happy this bill passed and you are trying to sarcastically mock those who didn’t want it passed. The sarcasm is in the title of this post.
That’s not gloating. That’s observing a basic truth. And the goal, my goal, is not “winning” (whatever that means) but making positive change.
Speaking of “basic truth”, how about this?
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/29/health/policy/29health.html
The basic truth is that passing a bill written by insurance companies is passing a bill that benefits insurance companies. That shouldn’t have been the goal of the bill.
And if this bill was defeated, health care reform would be shelved for a decade or two – put off as another “third rail” that can’t be passed because you’ll never please all sides.
Complete bullshit. In the past, actual progressive legislation has been passed many times that did not “please all sides”.
This bill passed because it’s what the current crop of legislators wanted to pass. No more, no less.
I’m not going to argue further because I think you are deluding yourself. Get back to us in two years and tell us what you think. My belief is that _you_ will then think that it was a terrible bill – you’ll be the sole arbiter of whether I’m right or wrong. Let me know in 2012.
March 30, 2010 at 7:31 am
Complete bullshit. In the past, actual progressive legislation has been passed many times that did not “please all sides”.
You know, we’ve been trying to pass health care reform since FDR. Haven’t had too many successes along the way.
This bill passed because it’s what the current crop of legislators wanted to pass. No more, no less.
And what about all the current crops in the past? What did they pass?
Also, how, pray tell, do you propose we get 60 Senators again – all more liberal than Nelson, Lieberman, Landrieu, Lincoln and Bayh? I mean, if we rely on the current crop of legislators, do you foresee a better crop in the near future? Able to overcome the filibuster?
I’m not going to argue further because I think you are deluding yourself.
Heh. And you’re the one who thinks we’re going to get 60 more liberal senators in the near future. Funny.
That shouldn’t have been the goal of the bill.
The bill was not written by the insurance industry. That’s just not true, but it does add bass to the chest thump.
Bottom line: I can think of a million better bills than this one. What I can’t think of are a million better bills that Nelson, Lieberman, Landrieu, Lincoln and Bayh would vote for, PLUS one Republican (Snowe?).
Unless you can explain to me how you would have gotten all those Dems, PLUS one Republican to vote on a better bill, you’re just making a lot of self-satisfied noise.
Again, you accuse me of being delusional but it is you that isn’t looking at the actual legislative makeup of the Senate, and its fucked up rules that give the minority a veto.
March 30, 2010 at 7:35 am
Speaking of “basic truth”, how about this?
What that article says is that the insurance industry might challenge one of the bills facets.
Interesting for them to do…since they wrote the bill, right? What, did they forget to make the language more explicity.
But no worries, HHS is going to enforce it the way Congress intended, and the insurance industry will lose this challenge. Further, even if the insurance industry wins (which it won’t) they still have to cover pre-existing conditions for kids on their rolls.
Bottom line: this bill was an improvement over the status quo ante. It will provide insurance to tens of millions of Americans, end rescission, end bans for pre-existing conditions, fund commmunity health centers, close the donut hole for seniors, lift annual and lifetime caps on payouts, set ratios of dollars spent limits on insurance companies, etc.
It’s not perfect, or great, but it is better than the alternative: nothing.
And the legislative victory is HUGE for the Dems in general.
March 30, 2010 at 8:46 am
Oh, and looks like the insurance industry won’t get away with that after all…man they had some sloppy drafters of that legislation…
http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2010_03/023109.php
March 30, 2010 at 9:19 am
Also, how, pray tell, do you propose we get 60 Senators again – all more liberal than Nelson, Lieberman, Landrieu, Lincoln and Bayh? I mean, if we rely on the current crop of legislators, do you foresee a better crop in the near future? Able to overcome the filibuster?
Are you a teenager? Do you really think that the current environment is fait accompli for the next 50 years?
Change can actually happen rather abruptly, and has many times. Read your history books. The best way, politically, to stifle change is to offer half-ass pseudo-compromises that actually perpetuate the status quo.
Bottom line: this bill was an improvement over the status quo ante. It will provide insurance to tens of millions of Americans, end rescission, end bans for pre-existing conditions, fund commmunity health centers, close the donut hole for seniors, lift annual and lifetime caps on payouts, set ratios of dollars spent limits on insurance companies, etc.
Is this supposed to be a counter-argument aimed at me? The second sentence I wrote in this thread was “It has positives and negatives” – pointing out that it has some positives doesn’t refute what I wrote, it agrees with it. To wit, you’re playing a strawman game.
You’re also exaggerating those benefits in an unbecoming way.
And the legislative victory is HUGE for the Dems in general.
It is, perhaps, a victory for “Dems”. It is not a “victory” for the vast majority of citizens in the United States, even obliquely. It’s a crappy bill that more than anything else guarantees profits for and thus the continuing existence of an industry that is extremely destructive to what is the real goal – health care for all citizens.
You don’t need to argue any more. I’m on record – I think that you, “curv3ball”, will change your mind in the next couple years. There’s nothing you can say now that will change my mind; if you still feel the same in the future than you will have proved me wrong. As I said before, you’ll be the sole arbiter of that – you can even lie of you want, and that’ll prove me wrong, because I believe that you will willingly admit that you were wrong about this bill. Time will tell.
As to why I think this? Because I learned it myself the hard way.
The fundamental issue is that health care should not in any way be determined by entities (HMOs, insurance companies) that have a profit motive which conflicts with best medical practices. As long as that situation exists, the horror stories and overall subpar service will continue. Sweeping legislation that does not at some level address that problem is doomed to fail in the long run.
March 30, 2010 at 11:21 am
Are you a teenager? Do you really think that the current environment is fait accompli for the next 50 years?
Three points:
1. Not a fait accompli, but if the past 65 years of health care reform attempts are any guide, each iteration is less liberal than the prior. True for FDR, Truman, Nixon, Clinton and now Obama. But you think it will suddenly break pattern? And I’m the delusional one?
2. How nice of you to sacrifice all those American lives during the next 50 year waiting period – lives that will benefit greatly from the current legislation.
3. Regardless, if a better, more liberal Congress/Prez team comes along, they can more easily fix this legislation, than get something in de novo. You do realize that Social Security and Medicare were much less ambitious when first passed, and got better with time, right?
I mean, you’re not a teenager.
Change can actually happen rather abruptly, and has many times. Read your history books. The best way, politically, to stifle change is to offer half-ass pseudo-compromises that actually perpetuate the status quo.
I just gave you a history lesson about health care reform’s legislative history. And about Social Security and Medicare. The pattern seems to be, pass a less ambitious reform and improve over time.
Unless you have specific history to cite other than “history books.” Thanks.
Is this supposed to be a counter-argument aimed at me? The second sentence I wrote in this thread was “It has positives and negatives” – pointing out that it has some positives doesn’t refute what I wrote, it agrees with it. To wit, you’re playing a strawman game.
Um, you said, and I quote: “That a bill has some positive aspects does not make it a bill that should be passed and enacted into law”
I responded that the bill, despite its flaws, is better than the status quo. That is not a strawman argument, that is a direct reply to you who said that the bill should not have been enacted into law.
You’re also exaggerating those benefits in an unbecoming way
Feel free to provide examples in a becoming way.
It is, perhaps, a victory for “Dems”. It is not a “victory” for the vast majority of citizens in the United States, even obliquely. It’s a crappy bill that more than anything else guarantees profits for and thus the continuing existence of an industry that is extremely destructive to what is the real goal – health care for all citizens.
It is a victory for the 32 million Americans that will get health insurance. I would rather the bill abolished the health care industry, but you plan on waiting for a bill that will do that, you will be waiting for longer than 50 years. Seriously.
Sweeping legislation that does not at some level address that problem is doomed to fail in the long run.
Two things:
1. This legislation improved that (no rescission, no denail for pre-existing conditions).
2. In the long run, this legislation can be improved. It’s easier to improve reform bills than it is to pass them in the first place.
That’s why the GOP was so freaked out. They pointed to Medicare and Social Security, and the fact that they grew once put in place, and are now impossible to dislodge. Same here: it will be made better, and it won’t be repealed.
March 30, 2010 at 8:17 pm
Social Security grew until about Carter’s administration. Since then it has been slowly chipped away at, those funds were used to pay for wars for one. And it is certainly not impossible to dislodge, it will be next on the chopping block. Simply turn it over to the private sector to add to their increased gains with the health care bill.
March 31, 2010 at 6:47 am
Right, because when Bush – after re-election and with a GOP controlled Senate – tried to privatize it, that went over so well.
March 31, 2010 at 7:34 am
Yeah I as alive then. I suppose it depends on how much Obama listens to Pete Peterson and Paulson. At the very least the bipartisan deficit commission will try to cut benefits and raise the retirement age. And since my mother lives on 12 K a year I guess it’s not as dire as we think.