Charli Carpenter comments:
[W]hat ought to be done to change this trend [towards restricted civil liberties] – in other words, is it too late for dissent to make a difference? I welcome readers’ ideas. I think many voters thought they’d already taken the appropriate step by electing a progressive, pro-civil liberties leader.With the writing on the wall, what now?
I don’t think the answer to her question is particularly difficult—people who want to halt the erosion of civil liberties need to do a better job of persuading people that the erosion of civil liberties would be a bad thing.
The answer is not particularly difficult, true, but that isn’t much of an answer. The problem is not that people necessarily think that the loss of civil liberties is an absolute good – it is that they believe that preserving civil liberties is less important than protecting themselves from scary terror. (It doesn’t hurt that the civil liberties being traded away are generally those of other people – witness the outrage among “civil libertarians” when an American’s life is (openly) judged to be less than infinitely more precious than a foreigner’s.) It is generally assumed to be a coincidence that the period of curtailed civil liberties and the period of bombing and/or invading the shit out of x many countries overlap so perfectly, but it is not. As long as people are told that a threat is great enough to justify going to war, they are going to make the sorts of judgments people always make during war, and those generally involve doing things which do not demonstrate a healthy respect for other people’s inalienable human rights, for example: killing them. You can argue that people should refuse to do these things, and perhaps you are right, and in order to test the real-world value of such arguments I propose an experiment. We go to the race track, and we make a private bet: I put $100 the horse that wins every race, and you bet on the horse that loses every race but really should win goddammit!!!!, and at the end of the night we’ll see who comes out ahead. I’m willing to continue this experiment for as long as it takes.
If you want to stop people – including Presidents – from making the decisions that people and Presidents have always made during wartime, you have to make it not wartime. And the way you do that is by ending the war. But, you whine, isn’t this just shifting from one impossible goal to another? Of course it isn’t, it is exactly the opposite, as you would realize if you let the occasional thought interrupt your incessant whining. While history tells every war reduces civil liberties, it also tells us that every single war ever fought eventually ends – look back as far as you like, it only gets truer. What this requires is acknowledging that there is little actual threat posed to the United States of America by people in Afghanistan or Pakistan who lack the skill required to cause combustion in gasoline. This would seem to be a fairly simple step, but both Left and Right have invested a great deal of effort in arguing that “deadly terrorism proves that I was right all along,” there may be some egos shattered as a result. Consider it collateral damage, a necessary sacrifice in the War on the War on Terror. Because if we don’t end the war on terror, the loser terrorists have already won.
May 15, 2010 at 3:43 pm
The day the towers fell, Americans lined up in pants-down fuck-me queues to abandon their civil liberties and submit to anal inspection. We hadn’t even gone to war yet. Meanwhile, the material basis of our sustenance is steadily flattering.
During the 60s/70s, we were at war but we were also burning flags and generally expanding our sphere of civil liberties despite COINTELPRO et al.
The current war overlaps neatly with the current creep toward government oppression, yes, but neither causes the other. Both are caused by popular infantility.
May 15, 2010 at 3:44 pm
faltering not flattering
May 15, 2010 at 4:41 pm
Actually, I kind of like Meanwhile, the material basis of our sustenance is steady flattering.
May 15, 2010 at 5:18 pm
Look! My penis is growing!
May 17, 2010 at 6:07 am
ThreeFour words: War on some drugz.May 15, 2010 at 4:00 pm
Sweet Jesus on a F8cking Bicycle, the G*d@%$ed M*therF*@#ing C*@3s*@cking “Wars” ended OVER 7 FUCKING YEARES AGO!!! Oooops…
Everything since then has been an “Occupation,” which is as different from ‘War” as trolling to get laid is to marriage. In troling, your goal is to find a target and fuck it; in an occupation, you’re there for the long haul – instead of looking to fuck someone, you’re just trying not to get screwed.
Enough with the fear! The people who need to worry are the one who are the least scared. You didn’t see every New Yorker shit their Depends trying to set the land-speed record to be the first one out of the tunnel over over the bridge to NJ, did you? Hell no! They were pissed-off that even thought the NYPD got rid of the stupid fucking tourist’s on Times Square, it didn’t help them get any faster to the good restaurants on the far east and west sides, or the Off-off (and even more ‘off’) Broadway plays that real NYer’s go to downtown.
Look, you little scared people in “The Fucking Heartland,” they ain’t gonna come for you. I know, Glenn’s telling you they are, but they ain’t. They’re looking to fuck with NY, DC, LA, Chi-town, Seattle, Portland, Boston, Atlanta, etc.
They’re NOT coming anywhere near YOU! If some dopey terrorist, say J. Hadd Foryouitis, comes back to their version of “Fearless Leader,” and tells him he bombed the “Tilt-a’Whirl,” the merry-go-’round, and the fried Snickers stand at your stupid State Fair, or set of anthrax at the local petting zoo or bowling alley, he or she would be taken into custody by Fearless Leader and he’d rendition their stupid ass to somewhere that makes Gitmo look like Club Med. Why? For wasting fucking resources and time!
So, if you don’t live in or very, very near a major urban area, STFU, stop watching “24″ and Glenn Beck, and go about your lives. You have nothing to worry about.
What no one in the fucking “Heartland” realizes, with all of that quaking you do in your boots, and voting in more retards who think that ‘freedom’s just another word for somethin’ ya’ll gotta lose,’ IS THAT THE FUCKING TERRORIST’S HAVE WON.
Why?
Because YOU’RE FUCKING TERRIFIED!
Get a chalkboard:
TERRORIST’S WANT YOU TO BE FUCKING TERRIFIED + YOU’RE TERRIFIED = THE TERRORIST’S HAVE WON!
They’ve been a lot more succesful than even Osama could have dreamed.
He won.
The US lost.
And you’re the reason.
Now, go fuck yourselves!
May 15, 2010 at 4:06 pm
Oops! A lot of typo’s. And I haven’t even had my first beer yet!
Hey, “Poor Man,” I love you, an’ I know you’re poor, but man, can we get a preview so that I don’t look like some Liberal version of a teabagger?
May 16, 2010 at 10:11 am
I don’t see how that would help you drink your beer faster.
May 16, 2010 at 7:03 pm
I got to the part where blah blah tripping over themselves to scram and then punched you in the head in my mind and stopped reading in real life.
THEY CLOSED ALL POINTS OF ENTRY DIPPERFUCK.
May 17, 2010 at 6:07 am
Quite literal, aren’t we?
It was a rant about being fearful – not an historical take on what happened. Hopefully some people found some humor in it. I can see you didn’t.
Also, I don’t remember reading that they closed all points of “exit” from the island of Manhattan. But, you’re so much smarter than me, a poor, stupid DIPPERFUCK, I’m sure you’ll be glad to show me where they closed down all trains, bridges, ferries, tunnels, and subway lines (that don’t go to Times Square).
I must have missed that one. But then, we DIPPERFUCKS, frequently do…
May 17, 2010 at 8:01 am
OK, well, I was in NJ and we were freaking out, captain metaphor. I remember sitting on my neighbor’s porch when her mother bade us come in because she was afraid they’d dispersed some poison gas inside the planes that would spread the 30 miles or more to central NJ.
And yes, they did close the exit points. I don’t remember for how long. Where the fuck were you?
But wait, aren’t we being metaphorical? or do we switch?
May 17, 2010 at 10:18 am
Uhm, What airplanes are you talking about that might have spread poison gas to your neighbors mothers house?
I guess you really didn’t read anything after that because I’m clearly referring to the Times Square incident a few weeks ago, not 9/11.
Now can we stop the childish attacks on one another?
Peace?
May 17, 2010 at 4:08 pm
that is what happens when you flame someone without reading their post.
MY BAD.
May 17, 2010 at 5:46 pm
Just to be clear, my brevity is not to be flip. I was being a total douche.
May 17, 2010 at 6:11 am
Well to be fair, the anthrax was set off by one of (or several of) OUR guys in the gubmint, so fear of government is, in fact, quite rational.
May 15, 2010 at 4:34 pm
War? What war? There is no war. I like to call it “empire maintenance.” The use of the word “war” is just a marketing gimmick. Like soy “milk.”
No draft, no war.
May 15, 2010 at 4:46 pm
Unfortunately, logic is not the answer either. There are a certain set of people who cannot, for whatever reason, mentally attribute statistical probabilities and adjust their thinking/fears accordingly. I should know; my sister & her husband, who are deeply in debt and both of whom are in danger of having all the teeth in their heads rot out, recently received a fairly hefty tax refund. Reasonable people would have paid down their debt and/or gone to the dentist. Instead, they chose to spend the money on having a tornado shelter installed in their yard. Because the 1-in-1-million chance that a tornado might hit their house is so much scarier than the 100% probability that every tooth will rot out of their heads.
I’m telling you, it can’t be reasoned with.
May 15, 2010 at 5:14 pm
Well, you have to admit that the tornado shelter doesn’t entail multiple trips to the dentist.
May 15, 2010 at 5:46 pm
Meh wha turnado shelt!
May 15, 2010 at 5:11 pm
milk ⇒ tit
∴ ¬ tit ⇒ ¬ milk
war ⇒ draft
∴ ¬ draft ⇒ ¬ war
etc, etc
May 15, 2010 at 5:22 pm
Is this like some D&D dice game?
“I have ten Stupid Incomprehensibility points. That blasts your six Irrefutable Logics, ha!”
May 15, 2010 at 6:23 pm
It’s a mathematician speaking in tongues.
May 17, 2010 at 6:16 am
it looks to me like the operator milk operates on the d’Alembertian of ‘tit” then the d’Alembertian presumably taken over a partial contour (the positive real and part of the neg imag) of tit on the d’
Alembertian over a partial contour of ‘war’.
Then ‘war’ is on the d’Alembertian of ‘draft’, etc.
May 17, 2010 at 3:02 pm
Sounds to me like your field would benefit from better notation.
May 18, 2010 at 12:14 pm
hey most of the time people just use Feynman diagrams, but I can’t always remember what means what with them.
May 15, 2010 at 5:25 pm
Listen! to the voice of Fearless Lieder:
May 15, 2010 at 5:33 pm
After hearing this, I hate us for our freedom too:
May 15, 2010 at 8:29 pm
Danelectros and acid do not mix!
May 16, 2010 at 10:30 am
Maybe/a>.
May 16, 2010 at 10:31 am
Maybe.
May 17, 2010 at 1:09 pm
I stand corrected.
May 15, 2010 at 5:46 pm
Don’t be scurd.
May 15, 2010 at 5:49 pm
We’ve always been afraid of being afraid since we’ve been burning alive those brown people. It’s so weird.
May 15, 2010 at 6:11 pm
We just need uniforms:
May 15, 2010 at 9:02 pm
Oh dear sweet jeezus.
On the other hand, we don’t have such blasphemy on TV anymore. Do we?
May 15, 2010 at 6:50 pm
Great post.
I also like the way this encapsulates pretty much the entire debate on the left blogosphere.
Tenured Academic: “Whither Civil Liberties? Who knows? Anybody? Anybody?”
Washington Wunderkinderblogger: “Easy. All we need are more blog posts!”
Pseudonymous Blogger: “Civil Liberties or Endless War: choose one”.
May 15, 2010 at 8:12 pm
“Civil Liberties or Endless War: choose one”.
Perfect.
May 15, 2010 at 8:21 pm
Never mind the bollocks, it’s kittens and Robert Wyatt!
May 16, 2010 at 7:07 pm
whoever WMG is, fuck them for denying me a basket of kittens just so they can prevent me from hearing a song I’ll never buy for free.
May 16, 2010 at 7:13 pm
bastards
May 16, 2010 at 7:15 pm
And only 1:36 of the fucking thing. Oy.
May 18, 2010 at 5:18 am
nuellaontoast,
It takes a very big person to admit when they’re wrong and apologize, and you are that.
I see you have a website. I’ll be checking it out. McCardle is a gift of nature, and as long as she breathes, you will have an endless source of material.
Best of luck with it! :-)
May 16, 2010 at 8:54 am
JIhad bitches!
May 16, 2010 at 8:54 am
JIhad bitches!
http://cdn-www.cracked.com/phpimages/article/9/3/0/22930.jpg?v=1
You are posting comments too quickly. Slow down.
May 16, 2010 at 9:01 am
The disgusting thing is that once the economy really, really goes to shit thanks to all the war spending (thanks Dubya, that off the books thing was brilliant!), the same losers will want even more military spending because they’ll feel all naked n’ shit when living like a Chinese peasant.
May 16, 2010 at 2:00 pm
Are the gentle folks in The Heartland, deep down, really scared? I wonder. Perhaps it’s just enjoyable to deny civil liberties to people not like them. Same thing with torture. Getting intelligence is beside the point for them.
May 16, 2010 at 7:09 pm
Perhaps it’s just enjoyable to deny civil liberties to people not like them.
Or to feel good about their own nativism/jingoism/patriotism. Perpetual war is awesome!
May 16, 2010 at 6:41 pm
6/26 on VH-1
May 16, 2010 at 7:10 pm
the level of musicianship WAS insane.
May 16, 2010 at 7:12 pm
whilst the level of musicality was … how shall I put this politely …. shit?
May 16, 2010 at 7:10 pm
Ah, back to the roots are we?
May 16, 2010 at 7:24 pm
Your Ben Franklin glasses are so 1967. Get some aviator lenses like me so you can move up to 1976.
Then listen to 2112 in a darkened room lit only by the glowing bowl.
May 16, 2010 at 7:21 pm
Ah, if only I hadn’t stopped listening to them in 1982.
May 16, 2010 at 7:32 pm
This is how it’s done:
þŵȭɠ↷
ʬ Ϫ ҈ ҂ Թ
May 16, 2010 at 7:42 pm
For Kenmeer:
May 17, 2010 at 9:52 pm
That’s it alright, a slightly off-tune Dusty Springfield soundalike accompanied by ancient funkfusion with hungover psychedelics. That’s how I feel about Obama these days.
May 16, 2010 at 8:03 pm
I’m not reading all these fuck you
May 17, 2010 at 4:33 am
Just look and drool?
May 18, 2010 at 11:18 am
I wonder about that sometimes.
The PMI’s comment area seems like an ’80s-era hair metal club: 2 or 3 bands playing for each other while waiting for their chance to get back on stage.
May 16, 2010 at 8:58 pm
Please somebody, shoot me.
May 17, 2010 at 6:24 am
The clepsydra steals water; klepsein (steal) + ydro (water).
What IS a phyllostuffer?
May 17, 2010 at 10:58 am
If it were to steal time, it would be a clepsikron.
May 17, 2010 at 8:57 am
Fucking pettifoggers. How do they work?
May 17, 2010 at 9:32 am
Fight! Fight!
May 17, 2010 at 6:27 am
Was the Cold War a war? Cuz really, then we were also curtailing in the beginning liberties. But after the 50s not. IOW during Vietnam and all, the Warren Court was expanding civil liberties. And the argument made at the time was that we, as opposed to them dirty stinking commies, LUVVED US some civil liberties, and that wuz whut made us DIFFERNT from them! Sheeyit.
May 17, 2010 at 6:38 am
There you go, ruining everything with facts. Hippie.
Yeah, that’s the best counterargument. In response:
1. What you said about leveraging civil rights as part of the war effort – see also African-American solders and women workers in WWII. The 60′s civil rights movement was a factor unto itself, but, again, the restriction of civil rights is not an absolute good, it is just considered a good trade-off in a war context. If increased civil rights are thought to help the war, it will work the other way. The war is the thing, regardless.
2. Draftees, Mohammed Ali, Cambodians, those exposed to Agent Orange, and hundreds of thousands of Vietnamese civilians probably don’t view the 60s as an era where their human rights were considered sacrosanct.
May 17, 2010 at 3:49 pm
Obviously war and civil erosions are considerably coincident. But that does not make them causal of the other.
To end a war by which sake civil liberties have been reduced removes the prime rationale for said erosion, but that is all. Further results require further cause.
Other things happen too: the draft created the rationale whereby 18-yr olds were given the vote. (Drinking ages were lowered to 18 in many places around that time too, but the folly of this was soon seen and they were raised again to 21.)
We want tidy logical explanations we do. I would give you a tidy logical explanation for why this is so, but I fear it would be neither tidy nor logical.
May 17, 2010 at 4:28 pm
You really think drinking at 18 is folly, or just having it 18 only in some states is folly?
May 17, 2010 at 9:54 pm
18 yr olds with booze and wheels raise the hiway death toll considerably.
May 18, 2010 at 12:25 pm
worshipping together in the church of your choice….ha-honely in America….
Call any vegetable…call it by name.
May 18, 2010 at 12:33 pm
this one’s better
May 18, 2010 at 12:42 pm
Hey waitafriggin minute! You ain’t The Editors, you’re The Editor! Like who gives a fuck what you think?!
May 17, 2010 at 7:05 am
Expanding for some, but COINTELPRO and other official govt abuses of civil liberties (many far, far worse than today’s versions) were also being perpetrated.
May 17, 2010 at 8:28 am
We didn’t have to worry so much with good men like Elvis taking care of the dissidents on their own so as to avoid intrusive government shenanigans. It was truly a libertarian paradise.
the idea that the word “shenanigans” has a correct spelling seems absurd to me, but have it your way, red squiggly line.