April 22, 2008
Via Jim Henley, we learn that Virginia Postrel has solved the energy crisis:
In the real world, barring a massive buildup of nuclear plants, reducing carbon dioxide emissions means consuming less energy and that means raising prices a lot, either directly with a tax or indirectly with a cap-and-trade permitting system.
Elsewhere, Sean Carrol determines that biofuels are a crappy source of solar energy, and that nuclear fission is the way to go:
As an uneducated guess, I would imagine that in the medium run the world will have to turn to (Earth-based!) nuclear power for its energy needs. In the longer run, solar will be the way to go, although the amount of solar power we can reasonably collect here on Earth is somewhat limited. We’ll likely have to solve the problem of how to efficiently beam power down from orbit, after which we can build big million-square-kilometer solar power collectors in space. Not in my lifetime, I would bet.
Biofuels have been getting a bad rap recently, generally because - in the US, at least - “biofuel” is a synonym for “corn ethanol”, which has long been considered a technology with very limited promise, and is the only “alternative fuel” (aside from, one could argue, nuclear) which has ever received any significant federal investment. Compare to, for example, biodiesel from algae:
“If you replaced all the diesel in the U.S. with soy biodiesel, it would take half the land mass of the U.S. to grow those soybeans,” says Matt Caspari, chief executive of Aurora Biofuels, a Berkeley, Calif.-based private firm that specializes in algae oil technology. On the other hand, the Energy Department estimates that if algae fuel replaced all the petroleum fuel in the United States, it would require 15,000 square miles, which is a few thousand miles larger than Maryland.
Which sounds like a lot of real estate, but is only 1/7th the land area used for corn production in 2000 (last two links and 1/7th stat via Wikipedia. And could this 15,000 mi^2 be on the ocean? The ocean doesn’t vote.) Biofuels can also be extracted from agricultural and industrial waste. In practice, none of these technologies are actually ‘carbon neutral’, but they are tremendous improvements over fossil fuels, and there is no fundamental reason why, as the technology matures, it couldn’t be brought arbitrarily close to carbon neutrality. In addition, it is designed to work with our current fossil fuel infrastructure, which is an often-overlooked point when discussing alternative fuel options. The electric motor is a wonderful thing with endless advantages over internal combustion, but replacing every V-6 on the road with an all-electric engine would cost a great deal of money and energy, and would probably be a very hard sell to the world’s #1 CO2 producer, where per capita income is less than $2000/year.
All bio/fossil fuels are stored solar energy. Solar energy is, on any non-astronomical timescale, constant and inexhaustible. My namesakes at Scientific American gives us a sense of how much energy we’re talking about:
Solar energy’s potential is off the chart. The energy in sunlight striking the earth for 40 minutes is equivalent to global energy consumption for a year. The U.S. is lucky to be endowed with a vast resource; at least 250,000 square miles of land in the Southwest alone are suitable for constructing solar power plants, and that land receives more than 4,500 quadrillion British thermal units (Btu) of solar radiation a year. Converting only 2.5 percent of that radiation into electricity would match the nation’s total energy consumption in 2006.
That 2.5% is 10,000 mi^2 at 100% efficiency, comparable to the estimated 15,000 mi^2 needed for domestic petroleum replacement. In addition to this unimaginably huge natural supply of solar energy (which includes wind, bio/fossil fuels, etc.), there is energy from nuclear fission, hydroelectric/geothermal energy (a combination of Earth’s gravitational and naturally-occurring fission), tidal energy (essentially derived from the Earth’s rotational momentum), and eventually perhaps controlled nuclear fusion. None of these are without drawbacks - some create waste, some require large land areas, and so on. But the potential energy available is, for all intents and purposes, infinite. And extracting it is, fundamentally, not a very difficult problem. So a couple of things:
1. All non-fossil fuel technologies are, at this point, immature, so judging classes of them as failures at this point is very, very premature. (As would be judging them successes - all 15,000mi^2 figures are to be viewed with considerable skepticism until actually delivered.) If you were handicapping the technologies available to the horseless carriages 100 years ago, you would be fully justified in favoring the simpler electric or the proven coal-powered steam engine over the newfangled gas-o-leen that the Chardonnay-sipping elitists in Detroit were trying to foist on you. Now, however, you’d look like a mustache-waxing prick in amusing period dress for saying this, but do you ever learn? No you never do, you mustache-twirling, stovepipe hat-wearing ass. It is remarkable what a good idea and a few trillion R&D dollars can do towards making you look the fool.
2. There is no answer, and there is no end state. We have always used a mix of energy sources, and that mix has always varied over time, in response to economic and technological circumstance. That’s history fact. Fundamentally, there is no limit to available energy, nor is there any essential connection between energy and carbon dioxide, or any form of pollution. That’s science fact. As technologies mature, some will show more promise in certain applications, others will disappear, and still more will be discovered. If anyone knew any of the particulars of how this process will play out over the next 10-20 years, they’d be trillionaires already.
3. This evolution can be greatly expedited by broad and deep public spending on R&D, and not very much by cooing sweet libertarian nothings about the Invisible Hand while generously subsidizing corn ethanol and oil drilling. Rather than prove this in the conventional way, I will merely note that Ron Bailey has already written an opinion to the contrary, and then ask you to remind me of the last time Ron Bailey was remotely right about anything. Exactly. Indeed, I will suggest to you that the only way to fully appreciate the magnitude of my Rightness here, you have to read the entire Ron Bailey article, for only then will you truly know. Better you than me, anyway.
April 22, 2008 at 7:24 pm
If I recall correctly, the last time Ron Bailey was right about anything was when he admitted he was wrong about something.
April 22, 2008 at 7:46 pm
What a shame there are no geopolitical reasons to seek energy independence. Then Ron Bailey might have to give up his whole argument.
April 22, 2008 at 7:55 pm
I believe this only serves to confirm my original point. I think my Argument From Someone Else’s Lack Of Authority represents a breakthrough in logic.
April 22, 2008 at 8:09 pm
You ignore our visionary president, who “announced a new national goal to stop the growth in U.S. greenhouse gas emissions by 2025.”
Smells like leadership, dun’t it?
What a country!
April 22, 2008 at 8:39 pm
Hippie.
April 22, 2008 at 8:46 pm
I am interested in your ideas and wish to subscribe to your newsletter.
April 22, 2008 at 10:18 pm
Good arguments, all.
I do find it interesting that BMW is now heavily invested in hydrogen-powered motor vehicles. Seems like a losing proposition to me, but I don’t think they’re stupid, so good luck to them.
April 22, 2008 at 10:32 pm
Is anybody writing all this stuff down, so whatever civilization rises after ours collapses can take advantage of it?
April 22, 2008 at 11:19 pm
Yeah, well, you’re a loser. Nice posterity you got. It’d be a shame if anything happened to it.
April 23, 2008 at 3:56 am
Arresting image of solar power: I once toured a nuclear power station and was told “This station covers an area of two square kilometres. It produces two thousand megawatts of power. The solar power falling on a two-square-kilometre area is… two thousand megawatts.”
April 23, 2008 at 5:54 am
Who’s Ron Bailey?
Wait a minute, I don’t want to know.
April 23, 2008 at 6:15 am
The problem with renewable energy is not the technology. We’re good at that stuff now, real good.
The problem is the business model. The model of “let consumers get free energy from the sun” just doesn’t have the cash flow potential of the “come back soon for another tankful before prices go up again” model that Exxon has perfected.
Sure, Exxon’s overheads include purchasing the government, but hey, those guys are cheap.
April 23, 2008 at 6:31 am
Ah, I didn’t read the whole thing, but I did skip to the end: no energy policy as a moral equivalent to war? Hasn’t war been a moral equivalent to energy policy for decades now?
I’m not all that sanguine about the available area and so much (recall noting once that we need more panels than we currently have roofs), but I can get out the napkin again. In any case, failure to learn how to use the stuff that’s shining down free is basically retarded. I also wonder how well the research establishment could handle all those instant funds, but even if those geeks piss it away on shiny new slide rules and Lasik, it still beats wasting it on tanks.
April 23, 2008 at 7:15 am
“…and then ask you to remind me of the last time Ron Bailey was remotely right about anything.”
Well, he did smack down “Expelled.”
Also, my stopped clock was right twice today.
April 23, 2008 at 7:48 am
I’m no scientist but I thought tides were caused primarily by gravitational forces.
April 23, 2008 at 8:33 am
You used to be funny, then you got shrill, and now you’re just sensible and well-informed. I liked funny/shrill better.
Also, I’m surprised you didn’t devote more energy to wind. Wind power currently accounts for ~100 GW globally (about 1% of the total electricity generation) and is growing at 30% or so annually. Solar is less than a tenth of that. And unlike soalr, wind is already cost-competitive with fossil fuels in many areas.
Here in new York, there’s a lot of enthusiasm of for wind power upstate. It’s great — you’ve got these guys in overalls from counties with more cows than people, suddenly all about windmills. When the wind farmers are a lobby like the corn farmers, the politics of renewable energy is going to change in a big, big way.
April 23, 2008 at 8:52 am
I have a really stupid question/proposition.
Solar panels are complex, and they wear out over time. It’s a nifty trick, being able to run electricity straight out of a panel, but it’s expensive to produce and takes lots of area.
However, Fresnel lenses are pretty easy to produce, pretty low-tech, and as far as I know, with a nod to your astronomical time scale, they don’t wear out. Also, we’re pretty good at the turbine thing for producing electricity.
So how come, instead of covering the desert in expensive, complex, and resource-intensive panels, we aren’t creating big-ass Fresnel lenses, aimign them at something like, oh I don’t know, a big fucking rock, and using that to drive a turbine?
(I’m kinda serious, I’d love to hear from anyone with vast knowledge about the subject. My knowledge is only half-vast.)
No need to thank me, just cut me in for 5% once it’s up and running. And from that point on, call me “Mr. Five Percent”.
April 23, 2008 at 9:08 am
Dunno about Fresnel lenses specifically but my understanding is that most solar power today is generated through concentrtated solar and similar turbine-based technologies, rather than photovoltaics.
April 23, 2008 at 9:18 am
Photosynthetic algae’s largest limitation currently is building effective bioreactors to grow it. Extraction of the diesel is also problematic, but not as bad and could probably be solved quickly with enough effort. On the plus side, it is actually comes pretty close to being carbon neutral as it uses the carbon from CO2 to build the longchain carbons in the diesel (cycle of life and all that). energy consumption would primarily come from extraction and whatever needs the bioreactors would have.
April 23, 2008 at 9:25 am
chiggins, wikipedia led me to these people who say what you’re talking about already makes solar electricity generation cost competitive with fossil fuels. And there’s a “buy stock” button…
http://iaus.com/AdvancedSolarCollector.aspx
April 23, 2008 at 9:33 am
[...] has taken over our position (h/t The Editors) as the biggest carbon dioxide producer in the world, although we still produce 5 to 6 times as [...]
April 23, 2008 at 9:48 am
Dunno about Fresnel lenses specifically but my understanding is that most solar power today is generated through concentrtated solar and similar turbine-based technologies, rather than photovoltaics.
Nifty. One of the contentions that keeps coming up in these discussions is how expensive and resource-intensive it is to make photovoltaic panels. Good to know I can respond to such objections with “Eat it, mustache twirling, buggy whipping ne’er-do-well!”
chiggins, wikipedia led me to these people who say what you’re talking about already makes solar electricity generation cost competitive with fossil fuels.
Fucking sweet! IAS, I’ll be checking my mailbox for my cut.
(Thanks for the tips Gang At Poorman.)
April 23, 2008 at 10:29 am
Fundamentally, there is no limit to available energy, nor is there any essential connection between energy and carbon dioxide, or any form of pollution. That’s science fact.
WTF? Where the heck is your case, your basis? Of course burning fossil fuels adds to net atmospheric CO2, it has increased over the past centuries.
April 23, 2008 at 10:48 am
“Because ‘energy’ is not a word meaning ‘burning fossil fuels’,” I respond helpfully, graciously ignoring the fact that this unsubtle distinction is the whole point of the post, to say nothing of the entire project of alternative fuel technology. Having done my bit to make the internets a friendlier place, I will now honestly assess the chance that this one additional clarification will result in this very simple and frequently-reiterated point being appreciated at <~4%. Optimism and faith in the rational goodness of humanity prepare for another royal ass-whooping.
April 23, 2008 at 10:56 am
You can say that again.
Well, it’s the Earth spinning under the Moon and Sun’s gravity. I think what happens when you draw off tidal energy is you slow the Earth’s rotation slightly, rather than, say, reducing the gravitional potential energy of the Earth-Moon/-Sun system by infinitesmally de-orbiting them. Although maybe you do a little of both, or maybe I’m just completely wrong. Actually, the real answer is probably “it’s super-involved and complicated and you’ll be sorry you asked”, which is what the answer usually is. In any case, they are all REALLY big numbers which we can’t put any dent in, so it’s basically academic.
April 23, 2008 at 11:18 am
“This station covers an area of two square kilometres. It produces two thousand megawatts of power. The solar power falling on a two-square-kilometre area is… two thousand megawatts.”
Well, the Earth’s surface is 150 million square kilometers, and wikipedia says that an average of 89 petawatts (10^15 watts) reaches the earth’s surface, so that works out to about 600MW/km^2.
So, allowing for the plant being maybe a bit bigger than two square kilometers, or producing a bit less than 2,000 MW (which would be a really big), or being relatively close to the equator, that impluasible-sounding factoid turns out to be about right. How about that.
April 23, 2008 at 2:18 pm
I think you’re right theoretically, but getting from here to there mostly depends on whether or not we fuck the dog by using up too much of our remaining fossil fuel reserves without investing the huge amounts of money and energy it’s going to take to build that solar or wind or algae or magic beans infrastructure. If we dawdle around another 10 years or so, we may not have the resources to get the transition done, and then we’re screwed. It’s more of a political problem than a technological one, although the technology could stand to get moving a bit faster, but as you said, politics can definitely help that too.
April 23, 2008 at 2:22 pm
The one flaw in your plan is the lack of 9 figure salaries for oil company execs. How could you ignore such an obvious flaw?
April 23, 2008 at 6:16 pm
OK the Editors, I magnanimously admit that you’re right about energy and CO2 per se. I breezed over too fast. So, would you agree that producing energy with less CO2 output would be a good thing?
BTW I think it’s cool that you look like a 70s rock star.
April 23, 2008 at 6:50 pm
who needs big solar power plants? Just put solar on EVERY FUCKING EXISTING ROOF. Simple, eh? The new nanosolar technology that is already being produced in San Jose, CA is nearly 20% efficient and the University of Delaware tested solar panels of 40% efficiency recently. That means that we can NOW put 5 KW in the space that used to produce 1 KW. When the Delaware tech comes on line that doubles again. It would produce plenty of jobs, too. Oh, well, it’s never going to happen. Too many people are either too stupid or to vested in the current system to change it.
April 23, 2008 at 7:44 pm
Hear hear Bob!
You’d think that solar would be a dreamworld for libertarians like Postrel, if they weren’t so in love with their own opinions.
Grid-connected solar panels are available now. No more research needed. $20K will buy you a system providing about 100% of average electricity usage during the summer months, and 50% during winter. Declare energy independence! Vow to live for no other man! (Until winter).
Plus we’d need fewer and smaller terrorist-attracting power plants, less need to raise taxes to pay for security, to set aside land for power plants and transmission lines, all of which involve governments and taxes.
April 23, 2008 at 8:01 pm
One of the contentions that keeps coming up in these discussions is how expensive and resource-intensive it is to make photovoltaic panels.
Chiggins, that argument is so 1980s. If you haven’t noticed, we’ve got good at semiconductors since then.
A factoid for you. Australia’s richest man is Dr Shi Zhengrong, now returned to China where he runs Suntech, making solar cells. He’s become a multibillionaire in the past five years, quite a feat an industry any Texas oilman will tell you is simply not economically viable.
Note also, Suntech is not the biggest Chinese energy technology company.
April 23, 2008 at 8:07 pm
Max, can I borrow $20K? That’s just pocket change for every American, right?
April 23, 2008 at 9:05 pm
grandlaff
exactly
huge problem. solar city (elon musk of paypal fame) is now offering no money down financing for solar installation. as is the city of berkeley, CA.
i’m putting in 2000 sq ft of solar on my house here in LA and gridpoint (www.gridpoint.com) to manage the thing. also, my hybrid is now modded to be a longer range electric car, and i just figured out how to turn the gas off with a switch on the prius. so–run modded prius off of solar panels, all with technology available today. and god knows we have financial instruments available to anyone to borrow anything as long as some merrill lynch piece of shit can scrape a little off the top–so voila, oil crisis solved.
April 23, 2008 at 11:01 pm
“…this only serves to confirm my original point.”
I think it’s time this became another awkward internet semantic acronym:
TOSTCMP
Also:
The Liberal Fascist response to energy crises and environmental cautions:
Let them burn chardonnay!
April 23, 2008 at 11:13 pm
“Also, my stopped clock was right twice today.”
Ron Bailey is a stopped clock with an civilian 1-12 layout giving advice in a militarized 1-24 world.
Meaning he is right once per day.
At 1 in the morning when he says I think I’m going to bed now.
Then he pees in the bed.
April 23, 2008 at 11:14 pm
“TOSTCMP”
pronounced Toast Camp?
Because that would be a great holiday destination.
April 24, 2008 at 1:54 am
grandlaff,
Good point. An alternative to Robert Green’s suggestion is this: install the solar panels on your house. Refinance the house for the original value plus the value of the solar panels. At $20,000 that’s something like $120 a month more on your 30 year loan. Granted, in today’s housing market this might not be feasible, but depending on where you live you could completely eliminate your electricity bill. So the only real expense would be the difference between your electricity bill and the extra you pay on your mortgage. And if you live in Arizona (330+ days of sun a year) and sell electricity back to the utility you might actually come out ahead.
April 24, 2008 at 8:59 am
Max Power nailed it. The big problem with alternate energy production is that it is so decentralized. From a capitalist perspective, it’s much easier to corner the marker on a commodity be it corn or oil.
I’ve said this a million times and it can’t be overstated. Energy production isn’t so much the problem. As you’ve noted Mr. The Editors, there’s a lot of energy in a lot of different places. It’s capturing it and, most importantly, storing. Batteries. If we had something approaching a truly efficient battery we could generate our power individually, store it and use it as we need it.
Of course, we don’t have the technology to do that efficiently (and efficiently in this sense means cost effectively as well as whether or not the bloody battery works).
So we stick with the compact energy sources we know, burning fossil fuels.
One might opine that the production of energy capture and storing items might alone be the business that big business could transition to. Apparently it’s way too much work. Apparently.
And as you said, until we decide, as a nation, that research into new capture and storage technologies becomes a priority, it goes nowhere.
It’s funny to listen to the glibertarians talk about solutions to the energy problem coming along when we need them. The idea that some lone inventor will create the perfect storage battery in their garret while the rest of us cheer isn’t realistic. It’s going to take a massive effort and a lot of research money. This isn’t something that’s going to be cobbled together in someone’s garage. We’ve come a long way since Edison’s little invention factory. It’s time we realize that.
April 24, 2008 at 9:10 am
26: “that impluasible-sounding factoid turns out to be about right. How about that.”
Hmmph. No need to sound surprised - ALL my implausible-sounding factoids are about right.
The figure you are looking for is the Solar Constant - the flux of energy per square metre per second on a surface perpendicular to the Sun at 1 AU from the Sun. This is about 1.4 kW per square metre.
http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9068556/solar-constant
Of course, caveats follow: that doesn’t take the earth’s atmosphere into account (or clouds); that only works for surfaces perpendicular to the Sun, so either angled to the Earth’s surface or near the equator; conversion efficiency is low; etc.
If some bright boy could work out high-temperature superconductor cables, we could just build lots of solar farms in the Atacama and the Sahara and the Gobi, and pipe the power to the rest of the world. Sadly, transmission losses…
April 24, 2008 at 9:43 am
Chiggins, that argument is so 1980s. If you haven’t noticed, we’ve got good at semiconductors since then.
Yes, yes we have. We’re very good at them, because we’re burning fossil fuels to get the materials we need to make them, and to power the manufacturing process.
But it sure seems like we’ve about maxed our efficiency when it comes to extraction and refining capabilities. Copper takes about 17.8 barrels of oil to produce, so about $1800 right now. $300/barrel and now we’re talking about $5400. Aluminum is about 20 times more energy intensive to extract and refine.
So, we may be getting better at making the gadgets, but getting material for them takes energy. I also saw it mentioned on the LATOC site that they estimate it would take 20-25 years to implement alternative solutions, but Oil Peak folks also think that once demand crosses supply, there will be about 12-18 months before the cost of using oil to implement those changes will make that unfeasible.
It sure seems like we done painted ourselves into a corner by not getting this ball rolling when Carter tried to move us in that direction 30 years ago.
April 24, 2008 at 10:39 am
I’d be cautious of arguments of this sort, and Peak Oil prognosticating particularly. I’m not so old, but I remember hearing this same thing ~10 years ago, and I recall hearing about the same predictions from ~50 years ago, and it has not come to pass. They tend to peak when oil gets expensive - much the way global warming denial peaks when a cold front passes through. There is no end of technology, and there is no way of knowing how much undiscovered oil exists - last week, Brazil found somewhere between 3 and 30 billion barrels [TBR] between the cushion of its couch.
More to the point, even if drilling for oil were to become permanently expensive, it would just mean oil companies would start pulling shale oil, or liquifying coal, or natural gas, or - God forbid! - even “clean” energy. Again, energy != oil. They already invest heavily in this sort of R&D, because they have strategic plans that go out 30+ years, and, let’s face it, they’ve got the money for it. Of course there’s a difference between the laboratory and the field, but 20-25 years seems nuts.
The problem with waiting for the economic forces to push the oil companies to do this and/or bring about the Peak Oilpocalypse is that there’s no particular reason to think it’s ever going to happen. And from a global warming perspective, this is a problem, because oil is cheap and dirty. Realistically, if we were so inclined, we could probably get all the energy we need from burning peat and dried horse shit like our ancestors did (and like most people on Earth still do), and we would probably do it in big industrial shiny clean-burning shit ovens with catalytic converters and Clean Air Act-compliant chimneys and LCD displays and iPod inputs and everything. (And actually, a lot of biofuel technology is basically this, which ruins my analogy a bit. Eh.) The reason we don’t is not because it’s expensive or we’ve run out of horseshit (Ron Bailey is still working), but because, compared to refined oil and coal and gas, it’s dirty and stinky. We didn’t have the word ‘environmental’ back then, but coal beat peat and wood and oil & gas horned in on coal for substantially environmental reasons. Getting people to understand that they are making tiny and avoidable contributions to a global Greenhouse Effect is more difficult than getting them to understand that they and everything they own smells like smoke and burning shit. But it’s fundamentally the same idea.
April 24, 2008 at 11:31 am
The figure you are looking for is the Solar Constant - the flux of energy per square metre per second on a surface perpendicular to the Sun at 1 AU from the Sun. This is about 1.4 kW per square metre.
No, the figure I was looking for was the one I actually gave — 0.6 kW per square meter.
A flat surface facing the sun is *not* a good approximation of the Earth…
April 24, 2008 at 11:34 am
And from a global warming perspective, this is a problem, because oil is cheap and dirty.
The beginning of wisdom when it comes to Peak Oil is to recognize that we aren’t in trouble because fossil fuesl are scarce. We’re in trouble because they’re abundant.
April 24, 2008 at 3:36 pm
The problem with waiting for the economic forces to push the oil companies to do this and/or bring about the Peak Oilpocalypse is that there’s no particular reason to think it’s ever going to happen.
There is also the problem that the economic forces that put gas at or over $4/gallon are the kind that oil companies like best.
April 24, 2008 at 6:42 pm
But it sure seems like we’ve about maxed our efficiency when it comes to extraction and refining capabilities. Copper takes about 17.8 barrels of oil to produce, so about $1800 right now. $300/barrel and now we’re talking about $5400. Aluminum is about 20 times more energy intensive to extract and refine.
I assume that you are only referring to producing new copper. In Buckminster Fuller’s opinion, we do not technically need to mine copper. If we were to resuse the copper we already have instead of throwing a lot of it out, we would be fine because of ephemeralization and such. Of course, there is a difference between could and can or will.
One way to make home solar panels affordable is not to sell solar panels, but sell solar generation services. Instead of investing in the panels, you pay a company for the electricity generated by panels installed on you roof. The company maintains the panels, and would upgrade them when it became economical. The panels are designed for easy breakdown and resuse of materials. If I could get some of the $20k I could do some more research into the feasibility.
April 24, 2008 at 8:09 pm
[...] The Editors makes the point that some better version of biofuels production technology may work great some day, but that doesn’t change the fact that the existing corn-ethanol fixation has awful effects [...]
April 25, 2008 at 6:27 am
Make this happen faster, please. Then the rest of you DFH’s can go back to sleep.
(o0)
//||\\
April 25, 2008 at 7:49 am
43: the problem with your approximation is that you divide total solar energy falling on the earth by the total surface area of the earth. This would be correct if the sun shone on the entire surface of the earth simultaneously. However, we have this thing called “night”.
April 25, 2008 at 11:04 am
the problem with your approximation is that you divide total solar energy falling on the earth by the total surface area of the earth. This would be correct if the sun shone on the entire surface of the earth simultaneously. However, we have this thing called “night”.
Wow, are we really debating this? I guess we are.
The existence of night is why I’m right, and you are wrong. The solar flux corresponds to the energy reaching a spot on the earth’s surface when the sun is directly overhead. My calculation is of the average energy over the course of the year. Since power plants operate around the clock and throughout the year, my approach is the correct one.
April 25, 2008 at 12:24 pm
And Lemuel Pitkin scores an easy takedown!!
April 25, 2008 at 12:34 pm
Anyone have opinions about “solar Stirling” engines for energy? It could be cheaper than photovoltaic? Also, what ever happened to “Ovonics” (named after Ovshinsky, some theorist about solid state) that was supposed to be more efficient than regular solar cells?
April 25, 2008 at 12:45 pm
Also, what do you folks think of the predictions in this link:
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=080424190433.04dy6kj4&show_article=1
Oil per bbl could double in about four years. Not very in accord with the “because we have too much oil” mindset I saw above.
April 25, 2008 at 12:58 pm
There is no end of technology, and there is no way of knowing how much undiscovered oil exists
Um.. a question of whether or not there’s an “end of technology” is kinda meaningless, but I understand what you mean. I think. Maybe I don’t.
Also, that link says that the 33 billion barrel estimate was wildly off, and may only be 600 million. In either case, it’s not exactly under the couch cushions.
To reach it, Petrobras will have to run lines through 7,000 feet of water and then drill up to 17,000 feet through sand, rock, and a massive salt layer.
While you’re correct that Energy != Oil, by the same token, Technology != Energy. So far, the story of the last 150 years or so is not how the Amazing Gift of Oil gave us a cheap and abundant, yet clearly finite, source of portable energy at about 40 kWh/gal, and we amazingly used that to innovate new ways to tap the practically limitless sources of energy from the Sun and Earth, and then built our infrastructure around that. The story is that we put all our chips on “Oil’s never gonna run out”. It doesn’t seem unlikely to me at all that it could take 20-25 years to unfuck ourselves and reconfigure.
People of my grandparents generation once thought that Science was going to figure out a way to make nuclear waste non-toxic, and in reasonably short order, so they buried the waste in steel drums, in the ground, knowing full well that the drum would give out before the waste would. But they had faith in technology. Technology’s report came back on that one, “yeah, we can’t actually do anything with that, and we’re going to have to cover your whole town in about 30 feet of concrete. Real sorry about that.”
So, ya know, I do hope you’re right, and I’m not gonna say nothin’ ’bout no hope bein’ no plan or nothin’. But I wish I could be as relaxed about it as you are.
April 25, 2008 at 1:03 pm
Rambuncle:
If we were to resuse the copper we already have instead of throwing a lot of it out, we would be fine because of ephemeralization and such. Of course, there is a difference between could and can or will.
I wasn’t aware we were throwin’ it out? Every anecdote I’ve heard about copper for the last several years involves someone gettin’ their pipes or gutters or what have you stolen for scrap? How much do they think we could recover?
April 25, 2008 at 1:58 pm
I wasn’t aware we were throwin’ it out? Every anecdote I’ve heard about copper for the last several years involves someone gettin’ their pipes or gutters or what have you stolen for scrap? How much do they think we could recover?
Short answer: I let the little people do calculations. I am much to elitist to dirty myself with numbers and equations. My beautiful mind is only comfortable when amongst the downy pillows that are vague generalities.
Long answer: Well, I was only paraphrasing from a book that I read a few years ago(Critical Path by Buckminster Fuller) and don’t really have any estimates. Also, the book itself was written many years before that, so I can’t say that any estimates in it are still accurate(not that I actually have the book with me right now).
Putting that aside, I know that copper piping and wiring are big on the scrap market. BF was focusing on the copper that goes into many electronic devices. At that time, and to a lesser extent today, those devices were simply thrown out when they broke or unwanted. The copper in those devices could be removed and reused, though how easy/feasible would depend on the design of the item. He looked at world copper production and usage, and it seemed that, because of the trends he saw in the development of technology, more could be done with the same amount of copper(also with other resources, see ephemeralization). That sets the stage for “Cradle to Cradle” design, where items are designed to be easily broken down into constituent parts for reuse, closing the resource loop. Business designed around “services” as opposed to “items” facilitates this process. For example in a “cooling service” business, as opposed to an “air-conditioner business, the company that uses your services does not buy an AC unit, they just pay you to keep their building cool. You then upgrade and maintain the AC unit to save yourself money. This idea comes from both “Cradle to Cradle” and “Natural Capitalism”.
I know this answer is incomplete and long. That’s too bad. Work is over and I got to get the hell outta here.
April 25, 2008 at 2:00 pm
Different people sometimes have different opinions. I guess that’s the answer to your question.
No, it one person saying one of the 5-6 sub-fields has 600 million, for ~3 billion total. But others say 33 billion. But nobody has completed surveying it. So I quoted the range of estimates.
Because oil is cheap, and the technology exists. There’s no financial incentive to fix what works well enough. Maybe oil prices will stay high or go higher, in which case we’ll have an economic reason to change, or else we’ll all end up living in caves. If I really knew what the price of oil was going to be in a few years, I would shut up and buy oil futures instead of talking to myself on the internets. You can apply this rule across the board. But the 50+ year history of the oil business is prices jumping dramatically in response to political crises, and then returning to the $20-30/barrel level, all the while demand increases. Past performance strongly suggests we’ll go back there, and there will be no financial incentive to invest substantially in alternatives. But nobody knows.
That’s great. ‘The popular imagination of technology rarely comes to pass’ I guess is your point. But Brazil runs on 20+% ethanol now, has for years, and Brazil is not exactly the land of rocket packs and teleporter machines. Getting energy from the Sun is not terribly difficult, it’s just not terribly lucrative in the market, and it isn’t supported by the government to any real degree. But - in addition to fusion and more speculative things - there are any number of immature but absolutely viable technologies which are marginal because, rightly or wrongly, they aren’t perceived as being able to compete financially with inexpensive oil.
April 25, 2008 at 2:17 pm
Oil per bbl could double in about four years. Not very in accord with the “because we have too much oil” mindset I saw above.
The point is, a doubling of oil prices would be a *good thing*. Not unlike a carbon tax, rising oil prices bring the cost of burning the stuff closer to the true social cost.
Of course, anyone who claims to know what the price of oil will be in 2012 is being silly. Besides the uncertainty about technological imporvements on the supply side the Editors talks about, there’s also the demand response. Short-term, demand for oil is highly inelastic, but longer term is a different story, especially with a little smart gov’t intervention to smooth the response. (It’s sort of arbitrary whether you call something like increased use of biofuels a supply- or demand-side response; the point is the same either way.)
Peak oil people think that Civilization is Doomed becaus we’re running out of oil. They’re wrong for two reasons. First, over any time scale longer than a couple years, both supply and demand for energy are quite responsive to prices. And second, we need to drastically reduce our use of fossil fuels regardless: from a climate-change pov, scarce oil isn’t the problem, it’s (part of) the solution.
April 25, 2008 at 4:03 pm
That’s great. ‘The popular imagination of technology rarely comes to pass’ I guess is your point.
My point is that we can’t always innovate ourselves out of every mess, and in this case, while I agree with most of what you’re saying about the potential in these emerging technologies, I have misgivings about whether or not we’re capable of making a graceful transition.
And sure, by graceful, I mostly thinking about our democracy, but further down that road is the Cannibalism exit. Which sounds highly unlikely, but seems to happen towards the end of several chapters of Collapse.
I don’t think the problem is whether or not we can figure out how to turn sunlight, tides, and geothermal heat into electricity. I think the problem is that we’ve built up a system to support 6 billion people that is going to take a fuck of a lot of effort (politically, economically, across the board really) on a global scale to make it backward compatible with its current form. And projections are for 9 billion folks in 42 years.
In fact, I think it’s reasonable (I must, musn’t I) to imagine what it would take to make this happen, if there was a fully developed, masterfully mapped out plan to do it; and then, to weigh the chance of it happening given the amount of good planning, foresight and cooperation among the states and corporate entities of the world that would be required to do so. And then to come away from it feeling like the odds just ain’t that good.
But that’s just me. I can’t wait to be wrong about this one.
April 25, 2008 at 4:25 pm
is it time yet for a “monkey butler” joke?
April 26, 2008 at 3:00 am
Nuclear fission may be the best bet, the problem is that after 3 Mile Island and Yuca Mountain, “nuclear” is a bad word, so I would say not politically viable.
It’s going to take a combination of switch-grass style ethanol, solar, wind, geo-thermal, conservation and a large investment into new technologies like hydrogen fuel cell. Vehicles should be equipped to integrate a variety of power sources. Much more of our defense budget has to to be swung towards energy independence, because it’s a defense issue.
I know, duh.
April 28, 2008 at 11:13 am
[...] Algae! The Editors chide me for carelessly conflating ethanol and biofuels. Fair enough. If algae are a clean and efficient way to capture and store energy from the Sun, I’d be all for it. [...]
April 28, 2008 at 11:52 am
Speaking of fresnel lenses, stirling engines, and thermal solar power (as opposed to photoelectric cells):
http://www.stirlingenergy.com/default.asp
The SES SunCatcher is a 25 kW solar power system that has been designed to automatically track the sun and focus solar heat onto a power conversion unit (PCU). This in turn converts the intense heat to grid-quality electricity. The concentrator consists of a 38-foot diameter dish structure that supports 82 curved glass mirror facets, each three feet by four-feet in area. These mirrors concentrate solar energy onto the heater head of a high efficiency, 4 cylinder reciprocating Stirling cycle engine, generating up to 25 kW of electricity per system.
http://www.stirlingenergy.com/default.asp
They’re currently working to develop arrays that will generate up to 1,750KW in Barstow and El Centro, CA. My university campus (UNLV) has one of these units, you can see it on Flamingo Dr., but the engine’s been removed from it for some time now.
Also in Nevada: the Solar One project, a solar thermal plant that just came online in Boulder City. 64 Megawatts, baby!
It seems that long-term power purchasing contracts from utilities are the key to getting these big utility-scale projects financed.
The company that built the system at Solar One, SolarGenix, uses a trough-like reflector that doesn’t need to track the sun’s movement. They design smaller industrial and commercial-scale systems as well.
Then there’s the Infinia unit (prototype, not in production yet) that’s the same concept as the SES, but smaller with a more efficient engine design. It’s a 3kw unit, appropriate for a home and about the size of a large satellite dish.
http://www.infiniacorp.com/applications/clean_energy.php
But hey, those are some pretty big companies, with big money raised and big ideas for big projects.
And they’re also just using reflectors to concentrate the sun; how about those lenses, hmm? And what about the do-it-yourself approach?
http://www.greenpowerscience.com/
Watch the videos. It’s all backyard benchtop steam and stirling engine stuff, but it’s obviously do-able. He’s also converting old cd/dvd and harddrive disks into Tesla generators. He uses recycled rear-projection tv screens salvaged from a junkyard for lenses that can burn holes through rock.
I’d like to try this with a hot-air expansion system to spin up an automotive turbo connected to a generator.
Actually, even without solar thermal power applications, you can tell these folks really just loves burning holes in things and cooking omelettes in the backyard.
Don’t even get me started on wind; there are too many diy wind turbine designs to list. I’m rather partial to the vertical-axis designs, myself; look, ma, no windmilling!
As for small-scale home-use wind and solar technology, ask anyone who’s cruised aboard a sailing yacht anytime in the last, oh, 20 years if the technology is workable and economical. They’ll wonder where the hell you’ve been.
April 28, 2008 at 10:13 pm
[...] said my bit on biofuels, so I’m not going over that again. Corn ethanol subsidies are an inefficient boondoggle, much [...]